blinds here are opened

[ladyrvr66]

I have grandson in Iraq and one in Korea. As long as American citizens stand together we can beat all the terrorists. When terrorists see that we are divided in USA, that gives them encouragement to keep up the killing and puts all our military at risk including my grandsons. Terrorists would have quit a long time ago if they had thought we in USA were all standing against them.
God bless all our troops

[ladyrvr66]

I have grandson in Iraq and one in Korea. As long as American citizens stand together we can beat all the terrorists. When terrorists see that we are divided in USA, that gives them encouragement to keep up the killing and puts all our military at risk including my grandsons. Terrorists would have quit a long time ago if they had thought we in USA were all standing against them.
God bless all our troops

[CyberVet65]

Good on you and Welcome to the forum!
Chet

[Tom N]

We teach our children that fighting is not the way to solve problems and disputes.

Why does our country not practice that same philosophy???

Human civilization has not advanced one iota in thousands of years because of additudes and national pride such as you are showing rvlady66.

[RV Roadie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tom N:
We teach our children that fighting is not the way to solve problems and disputes.

Answer: True, ideally we do, but only a fool would have their child kneel down and not at least defend him or herself when attacked. We do try to keep them from being bullies. There is a difference.

Why does our country not practice that same philosophy???

Answer: Because it does not make sense when reality is that the other side will not back down and be encouraged by that very simplistic view.

Would that approach have worked in WWII with Hitler?

Human civilization has not advanced one iota in thousands of years because of additudes and national pride such as you are showing rvlady66. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I take exception to that last statement from one perspective . . . It looked to me like a grandmother was looking out for her g'kids. And if they are taken care of, by default so will everybody else.

There is a difference between national pride and realism.

Perhaps mankind has NOT progressed much, welcome to reality, and your own membership in that group.

When we are attacked your solution is?

Or do you subscribe to the camp that thinks we should let N. Korea launch nukes on us first, so we can be proven in the right, rather than taking all diplomatic then pre-emptive action as required?

I capitulate to your premise that mankind has not progressed as much as we would like. I agree. So until we do, your solution/policy/response to being attacked in the real world is? Especially when the attacked are innocents, women and children as primary targets?

None of that was rhetorical. Your answers?

[RV Roadie]

Lady Rvr 66,
Many protest because they are afraid it might come to their turn to stand at the battlements and brave the reality of the world.

In fact, as you said, their turn will come sooner than later, if appeaser politics overrides the reality of the world today.

I've been over there. Reality isn't what Americans by and large think it is, and take for granted.

[mamaloya]

I am with rv and lady. My dh is a chaplain in the US Army. How would you want us to handle being attacked? Clinton ignored them and tried to make nice nice with them when the USS Cole was bombed and that only emboldened them to carry out an attack on US soil. People blame Bush for 9/11, yet the wheel was set in motion by people not willing to stand up for our nation.

I teach my kids not to start fights and to turn the other cheek, but I have told my sons that if anyone ever lays a hand on their sisters they are to knock them out. If they stand by and do nothing, they are showing a lack of love for their sisters and the next time that bully may decide to do more harm than just pull a pigtail or two.

I learned in my teaching days that the school's where the policy was to give kids a good talking to for wrong doing, the kids controlled the school.

When dealing with a stubborn, willful, malicious person (such as the terrorists are), you must take much more drastic measures.

Oh, and one more thing, how dare you respond to a woman who just said she has boys over in Iraq in such a way. You are belittling their effort. If you want to take it up with her boys when they return, go for it. But in the meantime, show lady some respect, encouragement, and support. Whether you agree with the war or not, we need to support our troops. Do you not remember how our veterans were treated when returning from vietnam? Shame on any of you doing anything even remotely similar. They are following orders and serving a great need.

Instead of focussing your energy opposing a just war, a war defending your freedom of speech, why don't you spend some time finding a solution. Everyone wants to oppose the war, but noone can come up with a better solution. Oh, and "peace treaties" have proven useless as no government "officially" endorses these terrorists. And Saddam never upheld any of his agreements.

OK, I have much more to say, but will shut up now before my veins pop out of my head. Sorry for such a long rant, but my dh may be in Iraq by the end of the year and people demeaning his task make me EXTREMELY angry!

[Paul Heuvelhorst]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by Tom N:
If Jesus Christ was here today what would he think of our actions?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Jesus taught throughout His ministry on earth that we are to, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself" (Matt 22:37-39)
He also answered the next question, "Who is my neighbor"... everyone on earth.

In the context of this discussion, Tom N., Christ laid down His life for all sinners, who want to acknowledge His gift of salvation. However, remember that judgement belongs to God alone, not us. And after His first judgement of sinful humans, reported in Genesis 6 and following chapters, He promised not to do it again... instead He sent us a Savior.

WWJD has very little to do with our current world situation since sinful man doesn't care what Jesus thinks. While we have a responsibility to love our neighbors, it is difficult, if not impossible for humankind to do that when the neighbor threatens our very being.

I just pray that when it is my turn to stand before the Judge, He will turn to my name in the Book of Life and confirm that my sins have been pardoned; that I am one of His children through the Gift He gave.

Blessings to you, brother.

[ladyrvr66]

I wonder if we can convince our people who had their heads sawed off while begging terrorists for their lives, through the sounds of their girgling and screams?? If that were your family member, would you decide that now is the time to stand up and take a stand. Or maybe better, you go teach terrorists that they should not fight. I am sure they would be very pleased to see you. Would you be willing to go one on one with them?? Do you think they will shake your hand or cut it off!! How do you think people who kill innocent women and children and teach their children to hate and kill us and blow themselves up to kill us should be handled. Give us a solution.

[mamaloya]

Jesus was not as totally peaceful as some make him out to be. When he found the money changers in the temple, he turned tables over and tossed people out.

So Tom, I ask you this. If a man comes into your, or lets say your are on vacation and it is on the beach somewhere, he grabs your wife by the throat and points a gun at your sone who is 5. Your 4 year old daughter is standing there looking at you with fear in her eyes. What do you do? From what you are saying, you would either talk to the guy, but hey he has been told since birth that Tom is absolutely evil (I mean look at your wife and daughter, they are in swimsuits how sinful) and doesn't deserve to live, so he won't listen. Ok, do you grab your daughter who is not being threatened and run to safety leaving your wife and son to fend for themselves? Pray for them, they will go to heaven. And at their funeral you can pray for the man who killed them as well.

The Bible says thou shalt not kill. Does that apply to this situation? No, that command referes to murder. Defending another life is not murder. I can tell you this. If someone was in my home and attacking my family, I would kill them, or die trying. If I stood by and let them kill my family, when I got to heaven, Jesus would ask me, "why did you not protect your children?"

[AmericanGypsea]

Okay, okay...between this thread and the other Open/Closed Blinds thread, I think we can all agree that there is one subject on people's minds right now and it is "War".

I think we are all trying to find a way to discuss it and come to terms because we all are coming to a realization that it is a reality and its happening right now in our lifetime. Not a sanitized version that ends in 2 hours when the lights come up and the movie is over, but the dirty, nasty, bloody horrors of war. And sometimes?...dying is not the worst thing that can happen to you. Bombed and burned out cities, picking through rubble for loved ones, (read: babies and children, elderly parents), being the only survivor as entire families or communities are wiped out. Losing limbs, going from one day being strong and able to provide for you and yours and the next on crutches at the mercy of charity. Mostly, the fear of not being safe. Scream all you want...when wars are fought and bombs go off, civilians are casualties.

It's very easy to thumb your nose at the European contries that have not jumped in and backed us in the Global War on Terror with great enthusiasm but remember, these things are NOT distant history with them...there are still survivors from the last world war who are living with just such memories. Contemporaries of my generation in greater Europe are the first that have lived in a fully recovered Europe...who can blame them for not wanting to return to war?

But war is coming. We're watching it escalate right before our very eyes. The argument that all we're doing in Iraq and Israel in Lebanon is creating the next generation of terrorists I strongly disagree with. My argument is the next generation of terrorists is being developed by the message of hate that the madrasses have been teaching the last generations. Muslim leaders have beem preaching a message of hate for so long that it is a fine-tuned sermon. In lieu of bedtime stories, (or math, science and literature for that matter), they teach hatred and bloodshed. Their belief is so rooted in hate whatever happens, you DO NOT want to be taken alive by the terrorists.

I would also argue that the terrorists, conversely, are creating the next generation of US, British and Israeli soldiers, and whatever other country who has no choice but to engage.

Although that is my argument, I still hold out hope and pray for Peace to prevail.

Marcia

[lwmuddy]

Thou shalt not kill, PERIOD.
If you are a follower of a religion that states certain regulations, then don't try to rewrite them to suit yourself.

I know, this is called "interpreting" what was written.
It's the same thing that goes on everytime a speech is made on the TV.

The people we are fighting follow a religion that forbids them from killing there own people and they are slaughtering them wholesale.
Does that mean that their God or religion is no good. NO.
They are just "Interpriting" what is written to suit there own ends.

I am, as you might guess, an agnostic.
That, to me, means "I'm not sure" God run's things.

To get the proper perspective on our present enemy we each should read THEIR bible to see what precisely is written as compared to what is told to us. If, as some have said, their religion is one of peace and they have not followed it, then they will suffer the wrath of their god. Right?

Are we entering a New Crusades period?

As for N. Korea, if they say they have a bomb and threaten us with it then we launch ours and wipe out every man, women and child.

War is war. We kill people and break things.
The longer it takes us to finish this silly, alledged war the more of our people will die. Do do it quick and stop fooling around.

War and killing is not a game, but it does make alot of people alot of money. CNN/FOX/MSNBC, etc.

This whole situation is rediculous.

If we stopped supporting various foreign leaders, only to have them turn on us, it might help.
We supported Sadam, Osama etc only to have them turn around and kill us with our own munitions. Silly.

We helped the Afgans only to have them kill us. Silly.

This, as some say, may be the war to end all wars. It's written somewhere.
RVRODIE has the books somewhere.

I vote for rvroadie as dictator of the world. all in favor say eye.
Apposed don't vote.

[RV Roadie]

Marcia,
Very well said.

Lwmuddy,
You've made some excellent statements I cannot disagree with at all. Except for the one as me as dictator.

I am in no way interested in going beyond discussions.

You said I will have a book? You mean history, fact, research and analysis???

Thank you! I stand guilty as charged. Are you?

I already served 27 years in the military, made life and death decisions, lost friends and family, and am officially, and personally, now retired.

Retired from following the orders of the officers appointed above me. Retired from not being able to criticise by law, those elected officials in our government,as long as I served.

Retired from all but one part of my oath. To defend and protect the constitution of the United States.

In 27 years I swore that oath a bunch of times.

Nuff said?

See, that last part, is CIVIC DUTY.

Do a search on "Jesus on war" on Google and you'll get a variety of Christian views on it, most diametrically opposed to each other.

But most importantly, as I keep saying, know your history or you are doomed to repeat it.

Now there have been agnostics and Christians weighing in here with bible quotes or not. But the history of the Protestant reformation, where the Catholics killed the Protestants, AND THE PROTESTANTS KILLED THE CATHOLICS, the only Christians that existed at the time, the Catholics, who became corrupt in the dark ages, and the protestants, who also killed their fellow Christians, based on dogmatic differences in Chritianity, is your basis of "interpretation?"

Turn the other cheek?

So that is your solution, as Protestants or Catholics, when the reformers killed the other Christians??? And now you think that will work with another totally different religion???

The Ten Commandments were in effect during the Protestant reformation, click on my links, do a little research.

Protestants didn't, nor Catholics. During the reformation. I thought y'all have gotten at least a basic education in history to know this.

Puhleeze!

Go here, a good history lesson on Christians vs. Christians:

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQ...eformation.htm

then do searches, and come back here and please discuss instead of "cuss." Provide links.

I am ready.

As long as you back up with historical facts, links to them, not some fundamentalist, Muslim, or Christian, revisionist history.

Or the rvisionist history of one sect, Muslim or Christian.

History cannot be revised, in scholarly circles, only in partisan circles.

If you can't debate either side, then I submit, honestly, you have not done due diligence.

More than blinds can be closed, eyes and minds closed are usually the culprits. And rhetoric, in place of discussion and research.

Faith is good, I won't debate yours, unless you choose to debate mine.

Then I will simply ask, are you ready to take over the decisions for the welfare of a country? I am not, and glad for it!!!!

The unexamined life is not worth living.

The treatise on those words of Socrates so many years ago can be found here:
http://www.granpawayne.com/courses/EXAMLIFE.HTM

Do you all really think that the questions here today have not been examined, fought, and died for before???

Thousands of times in thousands of years?

Do you think you have an answer??

That is borne out by humanity, inhumanity, history, or movements?

I am, as well as all the folks, leaders or not, are waiting for that perfect answer.

If you think we should wipe all our enemies from the face of the planet without warning or recourse I am not with you.

If you think we should allow them to kill us I am certainly not with you.

Fish, cut bait, or get out of the way. Please! You see, you might influence those like me who when young, may choose to ignore history, and take the easy way out, and then, if that is successful, you are ready to man the barricades?

I think not. Turning the other cheek will only, with terrorists, get you, or at least your loved ones killed.

The innocent ones.

[RV Roadie]

I want to make one thing very clear.

I respect all of your opinions, and more respect historical fact.

I do not care if your beliefs disagree with mine. Anymore than you might care if mine disagree with yours.

I am, and always stand ready, to agree to disagree.

But if you want to discuss, well, I can do that at your disposal.

If your perspective isn't even worth a few minutes of searches online, and is only your own Company line, then please don't complain if I back my statements up with reality, and you feel it is trying to best you.

I don't need that kind of validation. I have already done the research. And am willing to share, discuss.

I can agree to disagree in a heartbeat. But at least please, do a tiny bit of due diligence. If you choose to believe differently, we live in a country where that is tolerated. I agree.

If not, don't complain because I did mine.

I will try to help, but will never bow down to hearsay, dogma, or manipulative logical errors like common appeal etc.

In a foxhole, the phrase is praise the Lord, and pass the ammunition.

Go there, protect, or become a diplomat.

Or come up with solutions and send them to the appropriate government agencies.

Join a think tank if you have the reality based solutions.

But never, and I mean never, go online online, or in person, with delusional thinking.

I already stated on the other thread that I wished that my poster about "war is not healthy for children and other living things" was correct.

I have traveled the world, led, took responsibility, and found that the attackers attack, then cry that they were the victims.

And there are those that take that line against their own coutrymen.

But only in a free country.