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Old 03-24-2020, 01:36 PM   #1
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Finally! A simple explanation....

.... about freezing water for RVers worrying about winter camping.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s42005-020-0303-9




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Old 03-24-2020, 02:23 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FL420 View Post
.... about freezing water for RVers worrying about winter camping.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s42005-020-0303-9




I checked this out. The author is absolutely correct. Water will freeze at 0 deg. C or 32 deg. F. He just had a lengthy way of explaining it.
He must have one of those papers on the wall in a nice frame.
Lynn
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Old 03-24-2020, 03:40 PM   #3
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Well, the article starts with "Water expands upon freezing. What happens when water is cooled below 0 C in an undeformable, constant-volume container? This is a fundamental question in materials thermodynamics, and is also relevant in biological, geological, and technological applications in which ice forms under nano-, meso-, or macroscale confinement." That pretty much means it's not about anything in your RV since your RV doesn't have anything that could even come close to being considered an "undeformable, constant-volume container". Quite literally everything in your RV is deformable. That's kinda the problem. They deform until that deformation becomes permanent, and sometimes leading to catastrophic failure.
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Old 03-24-2020, 03:48 PM   #4
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Well, the article starts with "Water expands upon freezing. What happens when water is cooled below 0 C in an undeformable, constant-volume container? This is a fundamental question in materials thermodynamics, and is also relevant in biological, geological, and technological applications in which ice forms under nano-, meso-, or macroscale confinement." That pretty much means it's not about anything in your RV since your RV doesn't have anything that could even come close to being considered an "undeformable, constant-volume container". Quite literally everything in your RV is deformable. That's kinda the problem. They deform until that deformation becomes permanent, and sometimes leading to catastrophic failure.
To simplify this it means if water reaches 32 deg. or below a pipe will burst.
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Old 03-25-2020, 09:43 AM   #5
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Quote:
To simplify this it means if water reaches 32 deg. or below a pipe will burst.
Lynn
YUP...
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Old 03-25-2020, 10:53 AM   #6
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To simplify this it means if water reaches 32 deg. or below a pipe will burst.
Lynn
Yup. I've heard that PEX can handle a freeze or two, because it's flexible enough to stretch and go back to it's original shape, but I wouldn't recommend testing it.
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Old 03-26-2020, 10:25 AM   #7
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Yup. I've heard that PEX can handle a freeze or two, because it's flexible enough to stretch and go back to it's original shape, but I wouldn't recommend testing it.
The PEX tubing will expand / contract a little. HOWEVER, some of the metal crimp bands used with PEX will expand, but won't contract.
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Old 03-26-2020, 11:50 AM   #8
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Water freezing increases pressure in the pipes. That pressure can cause burst pipes.

Here are two clips explaining it.

Water pipes burst*because the*water*inside*them*expands*is it*gets close to*freezing, and this causes an increase in pressure inside the*pipe. When the pressure gets too high for the*pipe*to contain,*it*ruptures

Bursting water pipes are a major concern when winter temperatures drop below freezing. But why do frozen pipes burst?

Perhaps surprisingly, freezing pipes don't burst because of*ice*expanding in place. Instead, it has to do with pressure inside the pipes.

When water freezes, its molecules crystalize into an open hexagonal form, which takes up more space than when the molecules are in their liquid form that is, the*water molecules*expand as they freeze.

As the ice expands, it pushes water toward the closed faucet. This causes an immense amount of water pressure to build between the ice blockage and the faucet eventually, the pipe ruptures under the pressure, usually at a spot where there's little or no ice.
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Old 03-26-2020, 11:29 PM   #9
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My brain exploded halfway thru the 3rd paragraph.
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Old 03-27-2020, 03:44 AM   #10
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Wow, I have no idea what I just tried to read. Nicely done, OP!

One thing I wish more people understood is the effect of wind chill on water freezing. Wind chill is a measure of effective cooling rate, not absolute temperature. As in, a wind chill of 40 degrees and a real temp of 48 deg is telling you that it robs heat as quickly as a 40 degree temp. But it still only can cool down to the real temp of 48–it just brings objects to 48 deg more quickly than would otherwise happen.

So, a real temp of 33 deg with a wind chill of 20 wont freeze any lines. A real temp of 31 deg will eventually freeze exposed lines. At that temp, the wind chill just tells you how fast the lines will freeze. 31 deg with no wind chill will take a long time. 31 degrees with a wind chill of 20 degrees will freeze much more quickly.

Anyway, sorry for the rant. But it seems like people really struggle with that concept.
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Old 03-27-2020, 08:51 AM   #11
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Please read post # 4.
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Old 03-27-2020, 05:24 PM   #12
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Okay. I have a confession make.
I was cruising around the interwebs a few days ago. Forgot what I was looking for but stumbled on the paper linked in my OP.
Being a little bored and suffering from a touch of cabin fever I thought it might be interesting to post it and see what kind and how much of a reaction it would generate. I didn't do it to prank anybody(well..... maybe just a little .)
Like a couple of y'all who have manned up and admitted to it that paper made my brain hurt. It reminded me about the calculus course that kicked my butt in college and why I never applied to test pilot school.
Now some of y'all might have understood every word, term and formula. I salute you. You're a better man/woman than me.
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Old 03-28-2020, 06:30 AM   #13
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You should run for a political office.
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Old 03-28-2020, 06:50 AM   #14
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good read, nothing new to me I guess i remember by schooling and construction lessons etc,,,

As far as rv .. freezing...

open mind, some common sense, design and more... some RVs are well done that keeps water lines in good spots, many are designed to drain back to a low point drain, even with the valve in side and only a drop drain hose exposed.. but a good percentage have that dang water heater stuck thru the side,, one with a pilot that stays hot 24/7 may have a slight chance when winter camping,,

Ok this more the thread is about.. carry on..
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