Hydrogen as Fuel

[wa8yxm]

As I said up thread there are supposed to be two hydrogen stations near Detroit, I know where two NATURAL GAS stations are near Detroit.. Never seen an "H" pump, but I have seen NG pumps.. There are a bunch of service trucks (panel vans mostly) that run on NG in the Detroit area.. And at least 3 pumps, though one is "restricted" and services only one small fleet of vehicles.. The other two are public.

[WOODYDEL]

Do you see this?



Stanley Ovshinsky. That's the only name you need to know about how to take an existing car, store hydrogen in a SOLID. The entire SYSTEM was on Scientific American including the pumping system. Just like a gas station. Totally safe. This is another genius being ignored just like Tesla.

Scientific American Frontiers . Hydrogen Hopes . Meet the Ovshinskys | PBS

You can read about him and his already working inventions. Stuff you use every day.

This stuff is not going to happen because of deals (like in sneaky) made for all the wrong "solutions". Sorry but I'm absolutely cynical and for good reason.


Anybody remember Eisenhower? Remember there was no interstate highway system? All they did was stop fooling around and got busy. Wham! Problem solved.

That's not what happens now. For example the system above has a fully working apparatus you can see and feel. You can actually work it. What's the possible reason for not using an Eisenhower type mentality and getting this stuff set up nationwide. What's the hold up of natural gas stations? It's abundant and no new technology is needed to implement a nationwide network of stations. Who is going to build a hydrogen powered car if they can't get HYDROGEN! Why bother building natural gas powered cars if you can't get NATURAL GAS! The problem is with the lack of brains in DC. All we get is procrastinations. Can't even get a budget passed. They wouldn't recognize a good idea if it bit them. Either that or the deals (like the ethanol hoax) they've made are in the way.

To be even more cynical, Ovshinsky is old. His wife died a while back and I believe they are waiting for him to go. You can bet his personal research papers will disappear just like Tesla's.


Watch this if you have time to be convinced the "leadership" is useless:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THGar...eature=related

[RickO]

Originally Posted by WOODYDEL

This is another genius being ignored just like Tesla.

This stuff is not going to happen because of deals (like in sneaky) made for all the wrong "solutions". Sorry but I'm absolutely cynical and for good reason.


Anybody remember Eisenhower? Remember there was no interstate highway system? All they did was stop fooling around and got busy. Wham! Problem solved.

That's not what happens now. For example the system above has a fully working apparatus you can see and feel. You can actually work it. What's the possible reason for not using an Eisenhower type mentality and getting this stuff set up nationwide. What's the hold up of natural gas stations? It's abundant and no new technology is needed to implement a nationwide network of stations..

I couldn't agree with you more Woodydel. Tesla was the first I can remember and the practice seems to have done nothing but grow ever since. Rather than Eisenhower, the analogy I've always had stuck in my mind is the Manhatten Project. We got a lot done in a short period of time when we had to... and at this point I think we're in a position where we've got to conjure up a big time breakthrough and implementation but I don't see any action.

Rick

[Cat320]

By the time hydrogen is a use full fuel to us, we'll be too old to drive.

[dieselclacker]

Do you suppose BIG oil interests may have some influence as to when, and if hydrogen becomes the dominate fuel? Won't happen in my lifetime. Just my humble opinion.

Dieselclacker

[wa8yxm]

Good point Cat, good point.

As to the interstate system D.E. put in place.. Well, at the time we were just about recovered from one war and looking at the real posibility of anotehr and the need to move men and machines swiftly from point to point.

[Wanabee FTer]

Originally Posted by dieselclacker

Do you suppose BIG oil interests may have some influence as to when, and if hydrogen becomes the dominate fuel? Won't happen in my lifetime. Just my humble opinion.

Dieselclacker

Big oil has the power to persuade the US to wage war against other nations, do you really think they are going to let another source of energy squeeze their way in?

[RustyJC]

Ummm.....right. Those of us who have spent our lives in the oil business spend at least 30 or 40 hours out of our workweeks doing political planning and having conferences with the political and military powers of the United States.

If that were true, you'd think we could get drilling permits approved for ANWR and off the east and west coasts of the U.S. as well as a pipeline construction permit to bring oil from the Canadian tar sands to the Gulf Coast refineries - none of which are forthcoming.

Rusty

[Wanabee FTer]

Originally Posted by RustyJC

If that were true, you'd think we could get drilling permits approved for ANWR and off the east and west coasts of the U.S. as well as a pipeline construction permit to bring oil from the Canadian tar sands to the Gulf Coast refineries - none of which are forthcoming.

Rusty

Easier to take oil from other countries then to fight US conservationists

[RustyJC]

Perhaps you should do a little research instead of listening to NPR sound bites. Which oil companies are getting development contracts from the government of Iraq? By and large, not the U.S. majors or the U.S.-based oil service companies (the few that are left - most have moved their headquarters offshore.) And as far as "taking" oil, the U.S. buys it on the global market just like anyone else. Cite an example where we have exclusive rights to ANY nation's petroleum products - hint, there aren't any. In fact, Sinopec (Google it - it's the Chinese national oil company) is buying shares in many U.S. shale oil and gas plays, one reason being to access U.S. technology. To me, that's more worrisome than dreamland U.S. colonialism to "steal" some other nation's oil reserves.

Rusty

[SRT]

Originally Posted by WOODYDEL

Do you see this?



Stanley Ovshinsky. That's the only name you need to know about how to take an existing car, store hydrogen in a SOLID. The entire SYSTEM was on Scientific American including the pumping system. Just like a gas station. Totally safe. This is another genius being ignored just like Tesla.

Scientific American Frontiers . Hydrogen Hopes . Meet the Ovshinskys | PBS

You can read about him and his already working inventions. Stuff you use every day.

This stuff is not going to happen because of deals (like in sneaky) made for all the wrong "solutions". Sorry but I'm absolutely cynical and for good reason.


Anybody remember Eisenhower? Remember there was no interstate highway system? All they did was stop fooling around and got busy. Wham! Problem solved.

That's not what happens now. For example the system above has a fully working apparatus you can see and feel. You can actually work it. What's the possible reason for not using an Eisenhower type mentality and getting this stuff set up nationwide. What's the hold up of natural gas stations? It's abundant and no new technology is needed to implement a nationwide network of stations. Who is going to build a hydrogen powered car if they can't get HYDROGEN! Why bother building natural gas powered cars if you can't get NATURAL GAS! The problem is with the lack of brains in DC. All we get is procrastinations. Can't even get a budget passed. They wouldn't recognize a good idea if it bit them. Either that or the deals (like the ethanol hoax) they've made are in the way.

To be even more cynical, Ovshinsky is old. His wife died a while back and I believe they are waiting for him to go. You can bet his personal research papers will disappear just like Tesla's.


Watch this if you have time to be convinced the "leadership" is useless:

I have sent these URL's to my representative (Chip Cravaack) and Michele Bachman. I'm tired of the "same old, same old..." from Washington DC. Not sending it to the two MN Senators as they don't "talk" to me after I sent some "we're broke" e-mails (they were nice e-mails!)

[hamguy]

Originally Posted by RickO

I think it's great news on both fronts. I too have been reading more and more about the shift to natural gas and have been waiting patiently for a breakthrough in hydrogen and it sounds as though this could be it.

I think the article was clear on two points listed above as problems. Fueling stations would need to be converted to handle hydrogen (or NG for that matter), and the new storage process makes hydrogen behave like a liquid eliminating much of the explosion hazard.

Rick

IMHO

If you believe liquid H2 is dramatically safer than gaseous H2, you are being misled. The liquid evaporates very guickly going right back to the dangerous state and once it is ignited, all bets are off.

We are being told that we have to switch to an alternate fuel that is inexpensive, safe and plentiful. Problem is, no such thing exists. Unless you consider gasoline. We have ample gas to last for years.

Doing so would allow time to find and develop alternatives. BTW, when I was in undergrad school (1966), I was told we would run out of gas before 1975.

Later (in the late 70's) we were told we would run out of oil by 2000. Remember Ted Danson, world's leading authority on absolutely nothing, not even acting, said we would have the oceans rising 50 feet or some such ridiculous number by 2010. Oh, and out of oil by 2010.

I would certainly love to cut our dependence on oil, foreign oil especially, and we can do so with our current resources.

The disaster? in the gulf has virtually abated and the panic is over. Sure there was severe damage to local ecology but the world did NOT come to an end. The Swamp Gator getters continue to kill this near extinct critter (according to PETA) and not one mention of oil in the swamps.

I would love for no one to ever die. But let's be realistic. More people have died mining coal than all the oil drilling, refining and use to date. See-

Free Frank Warner: U.S. coal mining deaths: 1990-2010

and -

AllGov - News - Offshore Oil Drilling Deaths More Common in U.S. than in Europe


Our current oil "Crisis" could end tomorrow if political interests were put aside and drilling and exploration of our oil reinstated. The fear factor alone would force OPEC and others to lower their prices.

I submit the entire economic system is being 'gamed' by politicians for reasons you can guess!

[Wanabee FTer]

Originally Posted by RustyJC

Which oil companies are getting development contracts from the government of Iraq? By and large, not the U.S. majors or the U.S.-based oil service companies (the few that are left - most have moved their headquarters offshore.)

I wouldn't expect US based companies are powerful enough to control world oil supplies. Corporations move offshore for tax breaks so the top exec's can be paid ridiculous amounts of money without having to pay US income taxes. Since most corporations compete in a world market this is considered OK. Only problem is it contributes to our rising national debt.

Originally Posted by RustyJC

And as far as "taking" oil, the U.S. buys it on the global market just like anyone else.

Rusty

I didn't mean taking in the literal sense. Controlling the price of oil would be a more accurate way to phrase it. Again it is a world market. Oil prices must be kept low to keep the fragile world economies operating properly.

[RustyJC]

Originally Posted by Wanabee FTer

Oil prices must be kept low to keep the fragile world economies operating properly.

Generally speaking, the Saudis attempt to moderate oil prices, often over the objections of the greedier members of OPEC. In fact, they have announced production increases in an attempt to offset higher crude prices resulting from the turmoil in Libya and other mid-Eastern countries.

Rusty