Is GM the tip of the iceberg?

[radar]

Originally Posted by Cooperhawk

Good post. Yes, the electric coop here made some bad mistakes in the past and it is costing us to recover from them. (Like going to war with farmers placing towers in their fields with little or no compensation resulting in many towers being dynamited.)

I don't know what subsidies Tesla gets but have read articles about the cost of the vehicle without them. It may be they are no longer being paid although I seldom have heard of a govt subsidy going away.

Most of the alternative energy industry is govt subsidized. I live in an area where solar is being rapidly built due to govt assistance. I am amazed at how many acres of farm land are now solar collectors.

I am not in touch with what Americans pay for power. We are currently in California with our EV and power is expensive during the day here but reasonably cheap at night. We set out charge timer to charge between midnight and 4 AM

Tesla’s (any model) are expensive. But they compete primarily against BMW’s, Mercedes and Audi and to a lesser extent Cadillac. The number one trade in for Tesla is a BMW. Yes they take trades. Generally people buy Tesla’s for the driving experience, not for economy. If you have the chance drive one. It’s an eye opener. Tesla sells a thousand cars a day and they have never advertised.

Re GM. I think the Chevy Bolt is a decent little car but way overpriced. For an extra 7000 bucks you can get a Tesla and the two cars are not in the same league on any level. And there is no access to the Tesla Supercharger systym with a Bolt. It will be interesting to see if they can ramp up to 2500 cars per month as per their announcement this year.

[Mr.Mark]

As a confirmed car nut, I'm always checking out the 'new stuff'. Our local 'high-line' car dealer always has something new and it's obvious even the imports are offering new pricey SUV's.

Rolls Royce Cullinan
Bentley Bentayga
Jaguar E-Pace, F-Pace and I-Pace
Porsche Cayenne and Macan

Of course SUV's from Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Japanese car makers, etc., etc.


Coming soon...
Ferrari Purosangue SUV
Lamborghini Urus SUV
Aston Martin DBX

All of the car makers are making SUV's!!

Mark

[kandlwaddell]

A number of posts were unclear of the Govt. subsidies that Tesla receives. Here is a short and informative article regarding Tesla and taxpayer subsidies.

https://www.investors.com/politics/e...ubsidizing-it/

Of note, the article is from 4/17. I believe Tesla has exceeded the 200k production mark so the subsidies may have changed.

[radar]

Originally Posted by kandlwaddell

A number of posts were unclear of the Govt. subsidies that Tesla receives. Here is a short and informative article regarding Tesla and taxpayer subsidies.

https://www.investors.com/politics/e...ubsidizing-it/

Of note, the article is from 4/17. I believe Tesla has exceeded the 200k production mark so the subsidies may have changed.

The article clearly indicates that Tesla gets no subsidies from the government. The author seems to be confused and thinks that Tesla receives the tax credit. The purchaser receives a tax credit if they buy an electric vehicle regardless of the manufacturer. There is no Tesla specific program in place and Tesla receives no money on the sale of their cars. My guess is the writer dislikes American car manufacturers in general but since Tesla is by far the biggest electric car manufacturer in the world they are easiest to single out.

The Article is also way out of date as Tesla has now by far exceeded the 200000 thousand car limit before phase out of the purchasers tax credit. In 2019 it is GM, Ford, Chrysler, BMW, Mercedes, Audi purchasers that will get the 7500 tax credit. Tesla buyers will only get half of that and only for another year. Tesla now produces vehicles at a rate of 300,000 a year.

As for selling ZEV credits, again not a Tesla thing. Any manufacturer can sell them. They are a market commodity and part of any car companies business plan. .

[Solo_RV_Guy]

Originally Posted by Cooperhawk

Well answer this for me, do you have an electricity genie? Where I live electricity is not cheap.

Has anyone done a cost analysis of cost per mile on an electric car vs a gas or diesel car?

I'm sure Tesla charges for the juice up. Have you checked on the price of a Tesla? I have friends who have them.

Cost analysis should include the cost of the vehicle, cost of replacing battery, and cost of fuel.

Might surprise you.

Tesla still gets govt subsidies to build them you know.

Topic creep....


but from fact-checking site Wiki Tribune:


"
In total, Tesla has received or been promised fewer grants and tax credits than Ford and GM, but more than Fiat Chrysler. However, when loans, loan guarantees, and bailouts are considered, all three major U.S. carmakers have received vastly more government money than Tesla.
Tesla:
Total grants and tax credits: $3.5 billion
Total loans, loan guarantees, and bailout assistance: $0.5 billion Fiat Chrysler:
Total grants and tax credits: $2.2 billion
Total loans, loan guarantees, and bailout assistance: $17.6 billion
General Motors:
Total grants and tax credits: $6 billion
Total loans, loan guarantees, and bailout assistance: $50.3 billion
Ford Motor:
Total grants and tax credits: $4 billion
Total loans, loan guarantees, and bailout assistance: $27.6 billion "


The fossil fuel energy companies are subsidized to the tune of US$5.3 Trillion dollars per year (estimated by IMF, reported in same source).

[nothermark]

As I recall that IMF number is another one of those made up "total cost" numbers including theoretical environmental impact etc. Few folks look at the cost of not having the products vs having them.

[raineman]

The volume of mortgage applications last week fell to the lowest level since December 2014, according to a new report from the Mortgage Bankers Association, providing another sign the housing market is slowing.

[5spd97]

Originally Posted by radar

The article clearly indicates that Tesla gets no subsidies from the government. The author seems to be confused and thinks that Tesla receives the tax credit. The purchaser receives a tax credit if they buy an electric vehicle regardless of the manufacturer. There is no Tesla specific program in place and Tesla receives no money on the sale of their cars. My guess is the writer dislikes American car manufacturers in general but since Tesla is by far the biggest electric car manufacturer in the world they are easiest to single out.

The Article is also way out of date as Tesla has now by far exceeded the 200000 thousand car limit before phase out of the purchasers tax credit. In 2019 it is GM, Ford, Chrysler, BMW, Mercedes, Audi purchasers that will get the 7500 tax credit. Tesla buyers will only get half of that and only for another year. Tesla now produces vehicles at a rate of 300,000 a year.

As for selling ZEV credits, again not a Tesla thing. Any manufacturer can sell them. They are a market commodity and part of any car companies business plan. .

Tesla has sold/produced in the neighborhood of 140,000 vehicles total thus year thru October, , all three models combined. Thats about the same number of Ford Fusions sold during the same time period. Sales of the Model S peaked in 2016.

Tesla has reaped far more from the ZEV credit program than any other manufacturer. Other manufacturers have to buy credits from a company like Tesla who makes zero emission vehicles in order to sell IC vehicles. ZEV credits are valued based on range so a golf cart manufacturer would not benefit mych from the program.

[5spd97]

Originally Posted by Solo_RV_Guy

Topic creep....


but from fact-checking site Wiki Tribune:


"
In total, Tesla has received or been promised fewer grants and tax credits than Ford and GM, but more than Fiat Chrysler. However, when loans, loan guarantees, and bailouts are considered, all three major U.S. carmakers have received vastly more government money than Tesla.
Tesla:
Total grants and tax credits: $3.5 billion
Total loans, loan guarantees, and bailout assistance: $0.5 billion Fiat Chrysler:
Total grants and tax credits: $2.2 billion
Total loans, loan guarantees, and bailout assistance: $17.6 billion
General Motors:
Total grants and tax credits: $6 billion
Total loans, loan guarantees, and bailout assistance: $50.3 billion
Ford Motor:
Total grants and tax credits: $4 billion
Total loans, loan guarantees, and bailout assistance: $27.6 billion "


The fossil fuel energy companies are subsidized to the tune of US$5.3 Trillion dollars per year (estimated by IMF, reported in same source).

The loans are loans and not subsidies, credits or incentives. The big 3 produce millions of vehicles each year whereas Tesla turned out around 140,000 this year through October.; by far their biggest year of production. The big 3 have a huge national economic impact; Tesla not so much.

[radar]

Originally Posted by 5spd97

The loans are loans and not subsidies, credits or incentives. The big 3 produce millions of vehicles each year whereas Tesla turned out around 140,000 this year through October.; by far their biggest year of production. The big 3 have a huge national economic impact; Tesla not so much.

The ramp up for model 3 continues. They are presently producing about 1000 cars per day over all models. Next year production is expected to be around 350,000. That is significant.

I can’t follow your ZEV argument. If other manufacturers want to sell ZEV credits they just need to generate them...by manufacturing products that qualify. ZEV credits are not Tesla specific. GM generates them. Just not very many as they haven’t been able to ramp up their Bolt production. Nissan also generates them with their leaf.

[raineman]

This thread has been hijacked. This is my 2nd request to get back on topic. Others have mentioned this as well. If you guys want to talk about Tesla start your thread. Pretty rude to continue to ignore requests to stay on topic

[JC2]

Originally Posted by 2Yung2 Quit

The good times don't last forever. I've seen it go up and down my whole life. Live within your means and save for the lean times.

Now ur asking people to think logically and use common sense.

[radar]

The thread is about GM and other auto manufacturers either growing or shrinking operations. Tesla is one of those manufacturers.

Forum discussions evolve and drift. If they are not allowed to do that they would all be closed in one page.

[raineman]

Originally Posted by radar

The thread is about GM and other auto manufacturers either growing or shrinking operations. Tesla is one of those manufacturers.

Forum discussions evolve and drift. If they are not allowed to do that they would all be closed in one page.

No radar, one of the main hijackers. The thread is about GM and the ECONOMY. Suggest you go back and read the original thread . You keep going out of your way to make this about Tesla. Enough already please

Just in case you never read the opening post, here it is again.

Originally Posted by raineman

For some time I have been reading articles in the financials about a significant down turn in the economy predicted to hit sometime in 2019. Some farmers are already hurting and now GM is a laying off 14,000+. That's going to sting. Wondering if the predictions are correct.

Please refrain from any political comments.