Special Non Commercial Class A License for Pennsylvania

[Grapehound]

I think there is an interest in this topic. I think I will try to put together an unofficial booklet or a pamphlet which goes through the process of getting a non-commercial A or B license in Pennsylvania. One has to take information on this topic from a number of sources to understand this process and it really needs to be in one place. The state has repeatedly refused to create documentation which clearly puts all the information on this topic in one place. And PennDOT employees continue to enforce different interpretations of their own regulations and guidelines.

For example, the state literature says that you need to bring a person with a class A or B license (commercial or non commercial) with you to the testing center. There are anecdotal stories that people have been turned away from the test center for having no licensed driver with them. Other anecdoptal stories say that, at the test, examiners never even asked about another driver. The fellow who issued me my class B non-commercial permit in Lancaster told me specifically, unsolicited, that no class A or B licensed driver needed to accompany me to the testing site. He made a point of telling me this, unsolicited. I told him the PennDOT rules require it; he said that the person telling him how to issue my permit said no licensed class A or B driver was required to accompany me.

The examiner at my first test did not ask to see my accompanying driver's license. At my second test, it was requested by the examiner and produced.

There is no consistency. Employees of PennDOT, frankly, don't know their own rules on this issue (or on many other rules or guidelines in this process). So at least we can tell people what to do to protect their own self-interests during this process, based on what PennDOT says and what PennDOT does. I took a licensed driver with me both times to protect myself, despite what I was told.

I took and passed the class B non-commecial license examination today in Mifflin County. It has been something of a confusing ordeal to go through this process. If I can make it easier for anyone else by creating a booklet or pamphlet, I would love to do so.

I also stand ready to accompany any other area RV owner to his test to get his noncommercial license.

In the meatime, please share your detailed experiences in obtaining a class A or B non-commercial license in this forum or in a PM so that we can collect and share your experiences with all to give each the best information available.

[Grapehound]

I will also add that I asked my examiner yesterday (3/24/21) -- who does dozens of teen ager license tests a week -- how many class A or class B non-commercial license tests she does in a month. She looked at me funny and said, maybe four a year. No wonder so many PennDOT employees are unfamiliar with the various parts and requirements of this process.

[07Ram5500]

A "Manual Booklet" would be a great idea.

[Chuck in PA]

There is definitely an interest in this thread. I just received my Class B learners permit (again) & expect to schedule my test just as soon as I review the items on walk around portion of the exam and line someone up to go with me. I am in western Pa. I'll let you know about my experience.

[Grapehound]

Hey Chuck, good luck on your test. I will be very eager to hear your experience. My two exams at two different sites with two different examiners could not have been more dissimilar.

Examiners understandably are a little more truck oriented than RV oriented.

Make sure you have all your safety equipment (red triangles, flares, fire extiguisher, wheel chocks, extra fuses) ready to show and explain. Be ready to explain importance of tightening lug nuts (rust may be sign of loose lug nut), and tire safety in terms of inflation pressures, and tire aging. RV tires age out before they wear out. Know about drive tires and steer tires, even if you don't use one type. Importance of clean windows and mirrors.

Checking compartment doors by tugging on them, having good wiper blades, checking all lighting on the coach, signals, flashers, headlights, etc.

Your air brake test is huge. Most fail for not knowing how to do that. Make sure you know how to do that from the CDL booklet. Know how the air brakes work and what the alarms mean. If your vehicle does not have air brakes, then no air brake test requirement (they can't test you on a system you don't have).

One of my tests was 100% in the city at speeds under 25; one was in the country and involved getting on and off an expressway and also simulating an emergency stop. Totally different experiences.

Monitor all signs as you practice. A favorite question of examiners is to ask what that sign you just passed said. Bridge heights or weights or speed limits are favorites. I had a sign which said "35mph speed limit ends." So I hust mentioned it to the examiner so she knew I was keyed into the signs. She volunteered that the ne speed limit was 55.
But it did not say what the new speed limit was. Be aware of stuff like that. Both of my tests were in areas with sudden, radical reductions in speed, from say 35 down to 15 mph. If you don't slow quickly enough you could be failed.

Cruise the exam area ahead of time and get familiar with any odd traffic situations: difficult turns, odd signs, speed limit changes.

In one test I had a really odd traffic situation, one you rarely encounter. I was waiting for cross traffic so I could make a left hand turn. Facing me was a car (#1) making a left hand turn of his own in the left-center of his lane and a car (#2) off to his right trying to get around him to come through the intersection towards me. While I needed to wait to yield to the oncoming #2 car, he seemed to have plenty of room to come around but he was waiting for something. If I started to make my turn, and car#2 decided to come on around the turning car into the intersection, I could be guilty of failing to yield to him. I waited about 30 seconds and he didn't move so I finally initiated and completed my turn. I was lucky that he did not decide to come on through the interesection and put me in a spot.

You also have to feel free to swing out into other lanes to compete turns as needed. Rather than make a left hand turn by cutting the turn short and running over a curb or an island, you have to observe passing traffic on your right and swing far enough into the right lane when it is safe to make the left turn safely. If you run over a curb or an island it's likely a "fail." Be aware of the proper turn lane diagrams, the "jug handle turns, etc." in the CDL booklet.

One tip: if you have a GPS on the dash, turn it off. If your GPS shows a speed 1 mph over the posted speed limit, you can be failed for "speeding," even if you are otherweise compliant with speed limits. One of the reasons I failed the first time was for "speeding." When I went down a little dip in the road in town, the coach gained a little momentum and the GPS showed my speed jumped from my constant 23 to 26, 1 mph over the limit. This was explained as one reason why I failed. The examiner would not have been able to make such a distinction by looking across the cockpit at my analog speedometer.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[WorldCat25]

Grapehound,

That was the most specific description of the license process I have ever seen. With this, and some handbook study, an applicant will have a thorough knowledge of what to expect.

I will admit that when I got my CDL Class A license in Maryland over 40 years ago, I went through nothing as extensive as your description and am glad of it. Hard to imagine potential young truck drivers passing this if the same criteria are applicated to CDL as this. (Maybe they treat older RV drivers differently than truck drivers?)

Thank you,

[Chuck in PA]

Grapehound,
Thanks for the detailed reply. I understand everything you said except for the fuses I should have when I go for the driving test. Do you mean an assortment of the regular 12 volt automotive type blade fuses? I'm surprised.
I will post my experience but I haven't even called to schedule it yet & need to find someone to go with me. I think my choices in western Pa will be either Uniontown or Somerset.

Thanks again, Chuck

[Jshopes81]

Originally Posted by Chuck in PA

Grapehound,
Thanks for the detailed reply. I understand everything you said except for the fuses I should have when I go for the driving test. Do you mean an assortment of the regular 12 volt automotive type blade fuses? I'm surprised.
I will post my experience but I haven't even called to schedule it yet & need to find someone to go with me. I think my choices in western Pa will be either Uniontown or Somerset.

Thanks again, Chuck

If you need a ridealong pm me. I have a class a cdl

[Chuck in PA]

Originally Posted by Jshopes81

If you need a ridealong pm me. I have a class a cdl

Jshopes81, I just saw your message. Thank you for your kind offer. I will learn how to private message you to discuss. Sorry for the long delay in responding. I thought that I would be notified of any additional entries to this thread. Chuck in Pa

[Grapehound]

Good luck on your test, Chuck. Be sure to fill us ion on the details for your road test. It will be interesting to see how it compares to my two tests.
Larry

[wineshopper]

Greetings fellow RVers in PA and sorry for the long post. I hope this information is helpful. I thought I would provide another data point for taking the Non-Commercial Class A drivers test. I took my test in Lebanon since it was close by and had appointments available. They seem to have quite the reputation in this thread as well as Google reviews about the DMV for 'regular' license tests. Given that this DMV had the most appointments available sooner, I decided to give it a go. I felt very prepared and 'how bad could it be?' As you will see below, my guidance is prepare to fail the first time through, regardless of your level of preparation. I only have experience at this DMV, but have heard that this may be similar at other locations.

First, as we all know, just getting to/from your test involves:
1) Finding a fellow RVer with a non-commercial Class A or a commercial Class A CDL to accompany you – this could be the most difficult thing to do! At the test, they basically show their license, then stand well off to the side. They are not involved at all in any of the pre-drive inspection or in the drive itself.
2) Prepping and hitching up your rig and driving to Lebanon, PA (this is about two total hours for me)
3) Studying for the pre-test and the driving test (just refreshing memory is about 1 hour)
4) Waiting at the DMV (half hour)
5) Pre-test and test (1.5 hours)
6) Drive home and disconnect rig (two more hours)
7) All this after you actually already have your learner's permit for the Class A

So, this is basically at least half a day each test date if not more….

In addition, during the pre-test plus actual test, you will cover perhaps 100-200 specific points to prep for a tow or to talk about what you do while towing. As you all know, while towing, you are multitasking much more than a regular driver and needing to parallel process a lot of information about turns, timing, traffic, signs, etc. etc. - again much more than a regular driver’s test. While it may be natural to miss a point or two while giving the pre-trip inspection, so long as you can cover 90+% of the items, this should be a passing grade. As I understand it, there are a few ‘automatic’ fails:
1) An accident
2) Hitting a curb
3) Non being able to reverse in a straight line between cones
4) Safety infraction like running red light, not wearing seatbelt, lights out on vehicle, exceeding speed limit, failure to stop or yield, failure to signal, etc. Obvious normal infractions….
5) Not having appropriate paperwork (registration for truck and rig, safety inspection stickers up to date, insurance paperwork, learner’s permit, accompanying driver license, etc – all valid and not expired!)

So – on to my test experience. Spent about a 30 minute pre-tow inspection starting at front of vehicle. @ Grapehound provided a great overview in post #103 in this thread. I probably overdo this section of the test and gave a lot more information, so much so that the examiner sort of rushed me along because I was going too long. Ditto inside vehicle pre-tow. Backup test was fine and passed. The one area that I failed to provide a complete answer on was the hydraulic brake test where I did not say to pump brakes first, just press down and see if brake pedal holds without continuing to depress. That’s half correct, but need to pump brakes first. So, I missed one-half of one point for the probably 100+ items I covered. That is a 99.5% grade, which is passing in all other tests I know of.

Next was the driving test. In Lebanon, you will probably never do more than 35 miles per hour, or even 25 miles per hour. I am driving an F350 dually with a 42’ long fifth wheel. I can attest that some of the turns I was asked to do I would likely never attempt on my own in downtown streets. They were doable with very good timing. Much traffic in the area so you have to give time and wait, especially at unprotected green left hand turns. On several occasions at unprotected green left turns, I waited one or two cycles of the light to make sure I had clear traffic. I kept my speed 1-3 mph less than the speed limit, especially at the end when you come back downhill to the DMV. This means you will basically never exceed 25mph. Fortunately, I hit no curbs or anything else! I was very happy to return to the DMV after this successful run. In fact, during the entire driving test, I spoke out loud about what I was seeing and doing and why, like:
1) School area ahead, need to slow down if flashing
2) Speed limit changes
3) No trucks allowed signs
4) Unprotected greens and giving time to allow traffic to clear
5) Being super vigilant about stopping so I can see white lines ahead of stop lights or stop signs
6) Always being cautious and patient in the big rig
7) Railroad track slow down but not stop if protected
8) Etc. etc – everything I saw I spoke about unless being given directions. I am guessing I discussed another 100 points on this 20 minute road test. There are several tight turns left or right. You really need to know timing for your rig to not hit something or cross a line with the rig behind you. The inspector is looking out like a hawk for those since they are automatic fails…

At the end of the test, I was simply told ‘You need to work on some things and reschedule another test.’ As you can imagine, I was not happy given all the time and effort as well as how I tried to handle this professionally during test. I asked the inspector to tell me more so I could write down the areas I need to work on. Here were my failure points:
1) The hydraulic brake test (as stated above) – I feel this is like 0.5% out of 100% deduction
2) Stopping too early at a stop sign exiting the DMV – even though I could see clearly in all directions and stated that I stop early as a safety factor, I was given this as something to work on. What do you all think? Is that a failure point? I would deduct may another 0.5% out of 100%. So far, I have a 99% score.
3) The kicker – they have to have automatic failure points and some of these cannot be proven! This is my issue with automatic failure – there is no proof, only your word against the inspector’s word. I was told I hit a curb in a left-hand turn with the front right tire of the truck. The inspector was literally looking out of the window. He never said anything at the moment. For those of you who drive big tow vehicles, you will know that if you hit a curb with any front tire, you will feel it throughout the truck and the steering wheel. You may even knock it out of alignment. There was NO movement of my steering wheel at any point in the test other than turning. The only thing I can think of is a flat part of curb for pedestrians? He would not elaborate. I told him that we would have felt this and I would have acknowledged this but there was no curb hit felt at all. And of course no way to prove me right or him wrong. This is the automatic fail….incredibly frustrating.

I share these thoughts not to complain but to make these points:
1) We on the forum are trying to do the right thing and get the appropriate class licenses, while my guess is that the vast majority of PA drivers who should have this type of license don’t know about it or just don’t want to go through the hassle
2) When trying to do the right thing, and getting failed for ghost infractions, I can understand those who just give up on the process given the hassle factor
3) While I knew the reputation of this DMV, it did make me try harder to prep and focus on the test given experiences of others. This clearly did not matter on my first attempt.
4) This forum is extremely valuable to me in this effort and I can see that the various inspector claims start to form a pattern. If you look at the Google reviews of this DMV, you will see the inspector’s name many times. Several talk about mystery claims of hitting curbs. There may be a reason why there are so many test slots available here.

Here are some things that I was never asked:
1) Simulate an emergency and pull to side of road – where to place cones, etc.
2) Asked about any recent signs ( I was talking about signs I saw though)

To wrap-up : lest you think I am just a negative person, I did, in fact, schedule to take my second test in Lebanon. I had the test yesterday and passed. It was a much different experience and I felt like I drove about the same as the first time on the same route. Maybe I am a masochist…but I was determined. However, if I would have been failed again, I likely would have been able to restrain myself from giving my true opinion of the time waste that this can be for the small minority of people trying to do the right thing. I have been told by others on this forum that there are places to test further afield from my area (Lehigh Valley) that are fair and actually want to help you become a better driver as well as learn new techniques from those coming in for these tests. I probably would have gone there next if I needed to although those were more like a 3 hour drive from my home.

Moral of the story from my account anyway – prepare to be given a failing grade your first time. Stay determined and go back the second and you may have an entirely different experience. If anyone wants to private message me, I can offer more advice. Finally, I would like to offer to accompany anyone looking to obtain their non-commercial Class A who lives reasonably close by to the Lehigh Valley since I would like to pay forward the kindness shown to me my fellow RVers on this forum with advice and accompaniment to the DMV. To private message me: 1) login to the forum; 2) click my wineshopper user name next to this post; 3) Type message in the message box and then click ‘Post Message’

Now I feel much more comfortable and legal traveling on the roads and headed out of state as well. Good luck to all in this. I will say that the determination made me study harder and perhaps a better driver.

[Am-Pm]

We are trying to see if anyone in Bucks County PA can help us get a class A license.

[Grapehound]

Originally Posted by Am-Pm

We are trying to see if anyone in Bucks County PA can help us get a class A license.

Hi Am-Pm. Be sure to distinguish between a class A commercial driver's license (CDL) and a non-commercial class A license to drive RV's or fire trucks over 26,000 lbs.

[Veronageorge]

I know this has been a point of confusion for many, myself included. However, a recent review of the PADOT website for CDL's reveals an exemption from the need for a Class B CDL for those rigs NOT involved in commercial activity that are strictly used for recreation purposes. They give an example of a person driving a boat trailer that exceeds the weight limits but who is only using the boat for recreation. It clearly indicates a CDL is not needed.
Hope this helps other PA RV owners!