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Old 03-12-2021, 10:25 AM   #1
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Trust but Verify - Vintage cooling system upgrade lessons learned

It's been a while since I posted so I thought I'd share some lessons learned the hard way.

BACKGROUND
I've completely renovated my 1972 RevCon "Flatnose Frank" with the exception of an engine rebuild. The Olds 455 is amazingly strong and healthy, and I'm doing all I can to keep it that way. But the cooling system was inadequate. It overheated twice - once in traffic and once over a major grade. I learned that this was not uncommon for these old rigs and Olds motors. Overheating kills engines - quickly or slowly - so I had to solve this problem.

As a former professional mechanic and lifelong car hobbyist, I went with what I know works for hotrods and what has been adopted by all auto manufacturers.
- Aluminum Radiators
- Electric fan systems
- high(er) flow water pumps

I researched ad nauseam and chose a company that will remain unnamed.
They advertised they were the best and that high quality was their claim to fame over all others. They also sell direct as well as through most automotive distribution channels. American flags and Christian fundamentals feature highly in their advertising. I am a strong proponent of both.

So I bought everything they sold:
- Aluminum 3 core radiator
- Aluminum trans cooler
- Aluminum overflow tank
- Dual 16" electric "puller" fans
- Custom fan shroud to fit radiator

To assure the best coolant flow, I also upgraded the water pump with a proven FlowKooler high flow pump. It's top notch and works perfectly.

For fan control, I wired up a new Dakota Digital controller. It works perfectly and allows fine-grained fan on/off configuration via a bluetooth app.

The system was not cheap as a DIYer with a budget - easily $2k. And equally or more valuable, since I have a full time job, it took a least 16 hours for the initial removal, retrofit and installation of all the components. (But, I do love doing it...once, and right the first time.)

RESULTS
1. The radiator was defective and leaked the instant I poured coolant in! It was packaged perfectly, but somewhere between being built - in China, as I learned - and being packaged, there were 3 tiny pinholes punched in the core. Lesson: I didn't inspect carefully enough because I "trusted". I spent at least 3 hours to r&r (including draining, a job I detest) and 4 days delay waiting for a replacement.
2. Once a new (pressure tested) replacement unit arrived and was installed, everything worked as expected. Except....
3. The system overheated and boiled over under less load than ever before! It hit 230F and overheated in no time - a temp I'd never seen it rise to before. (Yes, it was properly bled, flowing and free of air pockets). This was only under a load - a sustained, steep uphill grade. All other performance under normal driving was fine. This pointed to..the cooling system was not keeping up.

I called the system supplier, who tried to blame the hi-flow water pump, which they had not supplied, and the hardest part to replace of this whole system. This made no sense, and I told them that I was not buying it.

I suggested that the fans might be the issue, and they agreed. The fans they provided were puller fans that moved 2000 Cubic Feet per Minute (CFM) of air through the radiator. They had, as it turns out, inadequate 12v motors and were made in a far away country. The supplier agreed there were better quality fans out there. (Remember, this is a company that touts only the highest quality.)

I researched the best fans out there and chose Flex-A-Lite. This is a good old brand that claims the first patent on auto fans. The reason I chose the puller fans I did was simple. They had the highest CFM i could find - 3000CMF ea - and they had strong, 18A fans that I knew would also be able to maintain the CFM, vs falling off over time. I was able to get the fans and shroud out without draining and removing the radiator, but swapping the fans was still a tight job that took at least 2 hours.

PROBLEM SOLVED
High temp on high load dropped to 200˚F! - thats a huge 30˚F drop. Lesson: CFM - sustainable CFM - MATTERS. For big engines with big loads, go with overkill.

LESSON (RE)LEARNED
Verify that "quality" is more than a tag line. The individual I dealt with was great at the supplier of the questionable stuff, and in the end the radiator and other parts are fine. But not "right the first time". Clearly this company is not as focused on quality and performance as they loudly claim. Using values that many in the US hold dear as part of your brand promise to quality, and then allowing sub-par products to get out of you doors, is unacceptable in my book.

I do respect the integrity of the person I worked with through this process - a manager, not an owner - so I won't share the company name.

Just a reminder to trust...but verify.
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Old 03-12-2021, 12:20 PM   #2
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While I can respect that you don't want to call out the manufacturer here, I hope you have an avenue to express your concerns online somewhere that other less-knowledgeable consumers can find them similar to an Amazon customer review or similar. Seriously, I spend a lot of time in the vintage motorcycle realm and it irks me to know end when someone new to working on old bikes comes on to a forum cause the parts they bought from an online retailer didn't work/weren't up to scratch, and it inevitably turns out to be a retailer that people more involved in that world know to be sellers of garbage. Its easy for a company to state they "care about customers, quality, value, blah blah blah" but its all just lingo if their products don't measure up. And telling a customer "Oh sorry just send it back and we'll send you a replacement" is not good customer service.
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Old 03-12-2021, 10:16 PM   #3
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Anytime anyone throws their personal religious views or politics in the midst of their business promotion, I take that as warning to back the ....truck up and go elsewhere. Doesn't matter if I heartily agree with their personal views or not, I'm pretty sure it's not going to go well for me on my end of the deal. It rarely does.
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Old 03-14-2021, 01:11 PM   #4
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I am quite curious as to why an experienced mech would make such a cooling system transition. A fully functional factory cooling system is more than adequate for cooling the engine. I am not making judgments by any means just curious.

I will make a personal observation as to Flat Nose Frank..It was very well done and I compliment you on your work..and the naming quite fitting and origanl
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Old 03-14-2021, 02:02 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EyezOpen View Post
I am quite curious as to why an experienced mech would make such a cooling system transition. A fully functional factory cooling system is more than adequate for cooling the engine. I am not making judgments by any means just curious.

I will make a personal observation as to Flat Nose Frank..It was very well done and I compliment you on your work..and the naming quite fitting and origanl

I'd say because cooling system design and components have gotten much better since 1972. Just like in my 72 Corvette. There are better (more efficient) parts now. I'm about to order a FlowKooler water pump for my Vette. The stock one can't keep up in the Texas heat with the a/c on.


OP, curious as to the level of fan noise you get now with the electric fans.
I'd love to replace the single, huge paddle bladed engine fan in my W20 with a couple of much quieter electric fans.
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Old 03-14-2021, 03:25 PM   #6
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Love you work you did on Flatnose Frank, and have followed all of your posts.

Sorry to hear the company and radiator worked out the way they did. Also happy that you sorted out the problems. Sadly, for $2000 the company should have been doing the R&D instead of you.

Had similar issues with aftermarket electric fans. So much so, that I do my best to adapt factory electric fans into my project vehicles.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BJohnsonsv View Post
It's been a while since I posted so I thought I'd share some lessons learned the hard way.

BACKGROUND
I've completely renovated my 1972 RevCon "Flatnose Frank" with the exception of an engine rebuild. The Olds 455 is amazingly strong and healthy, and I'm doing all I can to keep it that way. But the cooling system was inadequate. It overheated twice - once in traffic and once over a major grade. I learned that this was not uncommon for these old rigs and Olds motors. Overheating kills engines - quickly or slowly - so I had to solve this problem.

As a former professional mechanic and lifelong car hobbyist, I went with what I know works for hotrods and what has been adopted by all auto manufacturers.
- Aluminum Radiators
- Electric fan systems
- high(er) flow water pumps

I researched ad nauseam and chose a company that will remain unnamed.
They advertised they were the best and that high quality was their claim to fame over all others. They also sell direct as well as through most automotive distribution channels. American flags and Christian fundamentals feature highly in their advertising. I am a strong proponent of both.

So I bought everything they sold:
- Aluminum 3 core radiator
- Aluminum trans cooler
- Aluminum overflow tank
- Dual 16" electric "puller" fans
- Custom fan shroud to fit radiator

To assure the best coolant flow, I also upgraded the water pump with a proven FlowKooler high flow pump. It's top notch and works perfectly.

For fan control, I wired up a new Dakota Digital controller. It works perfectly and allows fine-grained fan on/off configuration via a bluetooth app.

The system was not cheap as a DIYer with a budget - easily $2k. And equally or more valuable, since I have a full time job, it took a least 16 hours for the initial removal, retrofit and installation of all the components. (But, I do love doing it...once, and right the first time.)

RESULTS
1. The radiator was defective and leaked the instant I poured coolant in! It was packaged perfectly, but somewhere between being built - in China, as I learned - and being packaged, there were 3 tiny pinholes punched in the core. Lesson: I didn't inspect carefully enough because I "trusted". I spent at least 3 hours to r&r (including draining, a job I detest) and 4 days delay waiting for a replacement.
2. Once a new (pressure tested) replacement unit arrived and was installed, everything worked as expected. Except....
3. The system overheated and boiled over under less load than ever before! It hit 230F and overheated in no time - a temp I'd never seen it rise to before. (Yes, it was properly bled, flowing and free of air pockets). This was only under a load - a sustained, steep uphill grade. All other performance under normal driving was fine. This pointed to..the cooling system was not keeping up.

I called the system supplier, who tried to blame the hi-flow water pump, which they had not supplied, and the hardest part to replace of this whole system. This made no sense, and I told them that I was not buying it.

I suggested that the fans might be the issue, and they agreed. The fans they provided were puller fans that moved 2000 Cubic Feet per Minute (CFM) of air through the radiator. They had, as it turns out, inadequate 12v motors and were made in a far away country. The supplier agreed there were better quality fans out there. (Remember, this is a company that touts only the highest quality.)

I researched the best fans out there and chose Flex-A-Lite. This is a good old brand that claims the first patent on auto fans. The reason I chose the puller fans I did was simple. They had the highest CFM i could find - 3000CMF ea - and they had strong, 18A fans that I knew would also be able to maintain the CFM, vs falling off over time. I was able to get the fans and shroud out without draining and removing the radiator, but swapping the fans was still a tight job that took at least 2 hours.

PROBLEM SOLVED
High temp on high load dropped to 200˚F! - thats a huge 30˚F drop. Lesson: CFM - sustainable CFM - MATTERS. For big engines with big loads, go with overkill.

LESSON (RE)LEARNED
Verify that "quality" is more than a tag line. The individual I dealt with was great at the supplier of the questionable stuff, and in the end the radiator and other parts are fine. But not "right the first time". Clearly this company is not as focused on quality and performance as they loudly claim. Using values that many in the US hold dear as part of your brand promise to quality, and then allowing sub-par products to get out of you doors, is unacceptable in my book.

I do respect the integrity of the person I worked with through this process - a manager, not an owner - so I won't share the company name.

Just a reminder to trust...but verify.
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Old 03-14-2021, 04:20 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EyezOpen View Post
I am quite curious as to why an experienced mech would make such a cooling system transition. A fully functional factory cooling system is more than adequate for cooling the engine. I am not making judgments by any means just curious.

I will make a personal observation as to Flat Nose Frank..It was very well done and I compliment you on your work..and the naming quite fitting and origanl
Thank you. As F4Gary correctly called out, the options available to us in 2021 far exceed those of 1972. The factory set up was not adequate, not just for this set up, but for many vehicles of the day that regularly overheated and boiled over. I sought to improve what was a known weakness with an upgrade using modern electronics and computer controls - and I succeeded eventually.
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Old 03-14-2021, 04:28 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F4Gary View Post
OP, curious as to the level of fan noise you get now with the electric fans.
I'd love to replace the single, huge paddle bladed engine fan in my W20 with a couple of much quieter electric fans.
They are "pretty'" quiet and very tolerable. I'd say I don't notice them until i hear them shut off. The difference in the sound of the original fan and no elec. fans (when they are off) is very noticeably quieter. I do wish I had recorded the sound of the original clutch fan to compare.

I will say that the more powerful Flex A Lite fans are much quieter and have little or no vibration compared to the lower-quality, lower CFM ones I replaced.
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Old 03-14-2021, 05:06 PM   #9
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Nice Rig!

Do you have more pics of Flatnose FRANK?
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Old 03-14-2021, 05:31 PM   #10
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[QUOTE=BJohnsonsv;5669573]It's been a while since I posted so I thought I'd share some lessons learned the hard way.

I have followed your previous posts with a great deal of interest. In my previous life I was an RV dealer (1969-1991). One of the brands that we represented was Revcon from 1971 - 1974? I sold several and do not remember any unusual overheating issues. One of my customers regularly towed a horse trailer with 2 horses.

With that said, I admire the work that you have done.
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Old 03-15-2021, 12:44 PM   #11
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It would be a good bet that if you had looked up what GMC owners have done, you could have had some valuable insight at your disposal. Those that have had overheating problems got them cured effectively. Some of them tow in the southwest.

Frank
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Old 03-16-2021, 09:07 AM   #12
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Do you have more pics of Flatnose FRANK?
Plenty - pls see links in my signature.
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Old 03-16-2021, 09:24 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by F76Marion View Post
It would be a good bet that if you had looked up what GMC owners have done, you could have had some valuable insight at your disposal. Those that have had overheating problems got them cured effectively. Some of them tow in the southwest.

Frank
Thanks @F76Marion. I definitely tapped the GMC resources during my research phase (that lasted months), as well as Olds Tornado and Olds performance forums. Overheating of the large 455 was not uncommon when sitting in traffic on hot days and on long climbs. Assuming no mechanical or timing issues with the engine, the solution was/is always better flow -- both of coolant (via higher flow water pumps) and of air to remove heat from the coolant while outside the engine (via higher CFM fans on the radiator) - and larger capacity or better flowing radiators. My plan was ok - as it worked out - but I was stung by poor quality. All seems well now, and some GMCers and other RevConeers have let me know they've benefited from my learnings, as I did from their's! With the overheating behind me, my towing adventures will begin shortly, as I bought a 2700# Ford Fiesta ST 6 sp manual as a toad.
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Old 03-16-2021, 09:38 AM   #14
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IMO high flow water pumps are not necessary on a street driven vehicle.

There are several approaches to take in engine cooling.

1. Create less heat. Cool the transmission on a stand alone cooler instead of running it through the radiator.
2. Keep the engine properly tuned and the timing set.
3. Install the largest radiator possible and run the recommended thermostat.
4. Run the proper mix of coolant/water.
5. Run a oem type clutch fan or the most cfm electric fans that will fit.
6. Use a proper fan shroud.
7. Reduce under hood heat with ceramic coat headers or header wrap.
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