Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
RV Trip Planning Discussions

Go Back   iRV2 Forums > iRV2.com COMMUNITY FORUMS > Vintage RV's
Click Here to Login
Register FilesVendors Registry Blogs FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search Log in
Join iRV2 Today

Mission Statement: Supporting thoughtful exchange of knowledge, values and experience among RV enthusiasts.
Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on iRV2
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 03-29-2021, 12:06 PM   #57
Senior Member
 
BJohnsonsv's Avatar
 
Vintage RV Owners Club
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnSafari View Post
I hope before you did all that work you replaced the thermostat with a new 192 degree one.
I used the best US-built OEM replacement thermostat that opens at 180˚.

I guess I failed to list "replace thermostat" as literally the first thing to do after checking all the easy basics of any overheating issue. I actually did this as part of replacing all external wearable engine parts early on in my renovation, so there wasn't a doubt about it, and I had tested its operation throughout the process.

Opinions on higher vs lower temp units are a classic debate going back decades . My experience led me to choose a cooler-opening thermostat with the argument that I wanted full coolant flow sooner than later and running too cool was never a concern.
__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1972 RevCon 250 D/T
Build story on Dwell * Build photos on Flickr * Flatnose Frank on Instagram
BJohnsonsv is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 RV Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

iRV2.com RV Community - Are you about to start a new improvement on your RV or need some help with some maintenance? Do you need advice on what products to buy? Or maybe you can give others some advice? No matter where you fit in you'll find that iRV2 is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with other RV owners, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create an RV blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 03-29-2021, 12:40 PM   #58
Senior Member
 
F4Gary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Grapevine, Tx
Posts: 5,633
Quote:
Originally Posted by BJohnsonsv View Post
I used the best US-built OEM replacement thermostat that opens at 180˚.

I guess I failed to list "replace thermostat" as literally the first thing to do after checking all the easy basics of any overheating issue. I actually did this as part of replacing all external wearable engine parts early on in my renovation, so there wasn't a doubt about it, and I had tested its operation throughout the process.

Opinions on higher vs lower temp units are a classic debate going back decades . My experience led me to choose a cooler-opening thermostat with the argument that I wanted full coolant flow sooner than later and running too cool was never a concern.
I think you chose right.
__________________
2004 Fleetwood Southwind 32VS W20 - SOLD!
ReadyBrute Elite towing a 2017 Ford Edge Sport
F4Gary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2021, 01:14 PM   #59
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: oregon
Posts: 674
Quote:
Originally Posted by udidwht View Post
When it comes to carb/s engine. An engine at part throttle running at 16:0 afr is cooler running than one running at 13:5 part throttle. So long as everything is functioning correctly.

Load = Throttle position

What one does not want is a lean afr while under load (~70 percent+ throttle). That is what kills an engine.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1842740.jpg
Since this is a restoration thread on vintage RV's and a heat issue, are you quite sure a wet charge runs hotter than a lean charge? Again I am not being negative, Marine engines are designed with wet charges (rich) expressly to keep cylinders cooler and safe from detonation during high loads....RV engines are heavy duty cycle engines.
EyezOpen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2021, 02:08 PM   #60
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,063
Quote:
Originally Posted by EyezOpen View Post
Since this is a restoration thread on vintage RV's and a heat issue, are you quite sure a wet charge runs hotter than a lean charge? Again I am not being negative, Marine engines are designed with wet charges (rich) expressly to keep cylinders cooler and safe from detonation during high loads....RV engines are heavy duty cycle engines.

Still works the same way today. In order to support a lean burn exotic metals and coatings need to used on the valves, valve seats and piston tops. That is why ceramic engine technology looked so attractive since it was thought to be the solution for getting past the heat issue with lean burning engines. A thermostatic enrichner was used in some carburetors back in the day before computers became popular and often it was just a valve with a bimetal element or cylinder filled with wax that when it expanded would open the enrichner port to add more fuel to cool the burn down.

This is now more of an issue with small motorcycles and power equipment that still uses a carburetor. Vacuum fuel pumps are also notorious for not being able to keep up under load since with the throttle plate wide open intake vacuum drops and engine pulse in the intake manifold can become muted causing the vacuum powered fuel pump to slow down so much that it can no longer supply sufficient fuel to the bowl of the carburetor and those that continue trying to push things once this is happening will often end up burning a valve or a hole in a piston top. Some will also end up melting the exhaust port on the head.

Even a modern Constant Velocity Carburetor with a slide is not immune to this which the Rochester Quadrajets Secondary bores work somewhat like since when you have them past a set throttle point they will unlock the larger secondary bores and the metering rods on the secondary jets will too a point compensate for the drop in intake vacuum and accompanying reduction in fuel that can be drawn through the venturie without a larger jet feeding them. Its all about mitigating the overheating of the combustion chamber by preventing an overly lean fuel charge. It was a balancing act and we used exhaust gas analyzers at the tail pipe and/or the sampling port that was on the catalytic converters of the early vehicles before engine computers with all their sensors became the norm to fine tune them.

The knock sensor which is basically a microphone is part of what richens up a fuel mix today since along with detecting heat, mass air flow, coolant temp, intake temp, ambient air temp, atmospheric pressure, engine loading, etc, etc there are microphones listening for the beginnings of pre-detonation so the system richens up the fuel mix along with retards the timing to give things a chance to cool down and may even reduce max available throttle putting the engine into limp mode before you can further damage it.
__________________
Neil V
2001 Winnebago Adventurer WFG35U
NeilV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2021, 12:46 AM   #61
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Seattle,WA/HB,CA./Fujieda-Japan
Posts: 849
Quote:
Originally Posted by EyezOpen View Post
Since this is a restoration thread on vintage RV's and a heat issue, are you quite sure a wet charge runs hotter than a lean charge? Again I am not being negative, Marine engines are designed with wet charges (rich) expressly to keep cylinders cooler and safe from detonation during high loads....RV engines are heavy duty cycle engines.
Absolutely.


Was a jet engine mechanic in the US Navy for 10 years. When it comes to (AFRs) us aircraft men and pilots know (ROP/LOP) much more than one driving a vehicle.


The main factor in determining cylinder head heat in reciprocating engines (too much) is load. Load = Throttle position


More load = More heat


ROP = Rich Of Peak (EGT)
LOP = Lean Of Peak (EGT)



Peak being stoic! If you want to run hottest run 14.4:1 (under load).



16-17:1 up to 1/3 throttle is not a problem, 12.75:1 after that.
You need to avoid the "Death Zone" of 13.5-15:1. Get above it on progression circuit, and below it on mains. When it comes to tuning carb/s.
udid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2021, 12:35 PM   #62
Senior Member
 
Tiffin Owners Club
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 156
Can we see more pictures of Flat Nose Frank?
MEC57 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2021, 02:25 PM   #63
Senior Member
 
BJohnsonsv's Avatar
 
Vintage RV Owners Club
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEC57 View Post
Can we see more pictures of Flat Nose Frank?
Honestly, the fastest way is to google "Flatnose Frank".
I also have links in my sig.
__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1972 RevCon 250 D/T
Build story on Dwell * Build photos on Flickr * Flatnose Frank on Instagram
BJohnsonsv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2021, 03:06 PM   #64
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: oregon
Posts: 674
Lots of discussion here and i believe that is a good thing, it should be noted some well-articaulted commentary is being made towards the combustion process and of course overheating. It must be said however most of this commentary is directed towards fuel injection, and while the end results are the same the methods in which FI are employed and how carbs work are like apples and oranges..Read pressurized fuel induction vs vacuum induced fuel induction..Two entirely different worlds...below is commentary from a very well respected and known expert in the field of carburation...It can make ones eyes glass over yet it explains the basic concepts and also explains why results can vary... Have a read..it might be illuminating...

Forget for a moment about all the info on A/F ratios and what is being posted about it on the websites.

It doesn't really apply as we tune for results not any particular A/F ratio. There are many things that effect the outcome, and carburetors are not a fixed metering device.

A/F ratios can and will vary considerably over the load/speed range of the engine depending on throttle angle, pressure differential above and below the throttle plates, airflow across the venturi areas, etc.

If you were way too lean the engine would be WAY down on power, "flat" on acceleration, hesitating, and bucking and kicking in protest. A/F ratios at light engine load can run pretty lean and the engine show no ill effects. Running w/o vacuum advance throws a monkey wrench into the equation because lacking another 15-20 degrees timing at light load means that it will not effectively burn a leaner mixture and require MORE fuel to make things happy.

So timing is also a big player in this deal as it allows for a much leaner mixture to be effectively burned, especially in the "normal" driving range and why engine vacuum is used to add more timing as it is a load sensing device.

There are also many other contributors to not being able to run effective ignition advance and observing some ping at light engine load.

I've had dozens of Pontiac 455's in here for custom tuning, many were very sensitive to timing and fuel at light load and I've had a few that were NOT happy adding any advance to them at all with the vacuum unit. We found that these engines had small camshafts in them and or camshafts with early intake valve closing points. Some had a LOT of quench as well. Others ran hot due to poor combustion efficiency, some had combinations of problems all making for a poor end result as far as getting them tuned was concerned.

In any and all cases we give the engine the timing and fuel that it wants. If you had to pull the timing back to 8 initial and 30 total and it woln't tolerate any more at light load a flag goes up telling me it's making too much cylinder pressure to the octane even though the static compression ratio is 9.3 or so to 1.

I'd also add that 74 main jets and 41 rods are already pretty "fat" in that carb number, assuming it has the correct rebuild parts in it (fuel inlet seat diameter, float height, PP hanger arms not bent down too much, etc).

I typically set those up with 73 main jets and 42 primary rods for set-ups like yours and they are flawless everywhere.

Where to go from here. As mentioned in any and all cases we tune for results, not any particular A/F ratio, especially at light engine load. I've seen engines have perfect results with the A/F ranging from 13 or so clear to 17 to 1 at very light load, so 15.5 to 1 is not outrange the effective range, and that number is also effected by how much timing advance you are using. LESS timing doesn't provide effective combustion so the results are altered vs adding more timing and seeing improved or better numbers on your gauge.

Audible detonation tells me it's not happy with something, and it may be more than just the A/F ratio the carb is trying to provide.......continued....
Logged

https://cliffshighperformance.com/si...p?topic=4090.0

And a postive note to our old carbed RV's..things are not as they seem to be.

All of the idle fuel must flow past the main jets. Most idle tubes are only .030-036", some even smaller. You'd have to be using a jet/rod combination that has less metering area with the rods fully seated to provide a restriction to the idle fuel

The idle system however does feed the main system. As the throttle angle increases and the engine sees a pressure differential change above and below the throttle plates fuel will be introduced from the transfer slots in addition to the holes under the mixture screws.

So yes, idle fuel has an impact on main fuel delivery to the primary side of the carburetors for "normal" driving.

The big difference for a Q-jet vs many other square flange designs is that it gets fuel much sooner (lower throttle angle) from the boosters due to the small primary bores and triple venture areas created by the rings around the boosters.

The design of the boosters and venture areas also greatly increase efficiency and atomization and one of the reasons Q-jets (and Thermoquads) are excellent street carburetors and rival the very best fuel injection set-ups for efficiency and fuel economy.

I've actually built scores of Q-jets to replace both factory and aftermarket Throttle Body style fuel injection systems and not once to date has any of those folks complained about increase fuel consumption or not as user friendly anyplace. Matter of fact most absolutely LOVE the switch back to a carb.

Case in point. A very good friend of mine owns a Chevy 1 ton dually crew cab with a 454, TH400 and 4.10 gears. It came from the factory with a throttle body FI system.

Despite his best efforts and everything with the factory ECM working correctly he got HORRIBLE mileage and not overly impressive for power output. We selected a 1985 dedicated 454 Motorhome Q-jet and he installed a factory cast iron spread bore truck intake. We also built him an HEI distributor with a custom advance curve and vacuum advance.

He had to purchase a fuel pressure regulator and set up a return system for the high pressure factory fuel pump, but overall the swap was relatively easy. He couldn't believe the improvement that the carburetor and HEI had over the TB and ECM set-up. Fuel economy went up, as did throttle response and power output clear across the load/speed range.

The only possible negative was that he had to "pat" the throttle once in the morning to set the choke, otherwise he said the new set-up was better to the FI in every other area.......Cliff
Logged

https://cliffshighperformance.com/si...p?topic=3634.0
EyezOpen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2021, 11:26 PM   #65
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Seattle,WA/HB,CA./Fujieda-Japan
Posts: 849
As with a carb/s one does not want to lean tune with a centrifugal only distributor. You need at min 8-10 degrees to be optimal of additional timing. If your vac advance pulls from above the throttle plate it should read (0) at idle. No lean tuning a carb with mechanical only distributor.


With respect to carbs I do a lot of work with Weber IDF carbs (Porsche & VW) and they have separate idle jets and main jets. And very tunable. Even the air corrector jets, venturis, emulsion tubes etc...all can be changed for different sizes very easily without removing the carb/s from vehicle.


There down side?


No pre heat and no choke/s. An enrichment circuit on a Porsche or VW with carbs and you would have to be a masochist.
udid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2021, 07:10 PM   #66
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,063
Quote:
Originally Posted by EyezOpen View Post
If you were way too lean the engine would be WAY down on power, "flat" on acceleration, hesitating, and bucking and kicking in protest. A/F ratios at light engine load can run pretty lean and the engine show no ill effects. Running w/o vacuum advance throws a monkey wrench into the equation because lacking another 15-20 degrees timing at light load means that it will not effectively burn a leaner mixture and require MORE fuel to make things happy.

Lots of valves burned and pistons had holes burned in them back in the day from pushing an engine that was running way too lean. Today small engines in the 50 to 150cc range such as used on small motorbikes, etc even using the Keihin CV carburetors are greatly impacted in this manner.

On the small motorcycles and motor scooters which go lean when run at wide open throttle, to for example climb a long grade, they will not have enough intake vacuum to maintain the fuel flow to the carburetor so the bowls will be low which further compounds the hot lean condition leading to catastrophic engine failure. We have to replace a lot of valves, heads, pistons and cylinders in these engines that have been pushed lean in this manner. Vacuum operated systems in the older fuel systems can cope with this to a degree however when you push them past their functional limits then you will eventually have a catastrophic failure.

I well remember back in the 1970's when gasoline prices jumped from 25 cents a gallon to 39 cents a gallon almost overnight and then went to $1.39 a gallon in short order with people trying to lean out their big block cars in order to get better fuel economy only to end up burning valves, pistons, etc.

Most didn't realize the compromises one had to make in order to run a little leaner and would just experiment with throwing in smaller jets without doing an exhaust gas analysis at various throttle positions and loads in order to verify that things did not go destructively lean under heavy throttle. How many times I would hear "But I read that you could do" and then they would reveal the X, Y and Z of what they had done. Most didn't read all the way through to the parts explaining the "If's" and "Gotya's".

Today as already mentioned many people getting small carbureted motorbikes to save money on fuel are still experiencing the same problems with trying to squeeze more fuel economy out of these small engines or by trying to run them beyond their designed top speed such as 52 mph for the 150cc low compression carbureted models. I have repaired a good deal of them and you should see the shocked look on peoples faces when you show them the internal damage to the engines caused by running them too lean especially the air cooled ones using the less expensive cloned Honda GY6 engines coming out from parts of Asia. Most of them have a very simple CDI instead of an ECU so any timing adjustments made by the CDI are based on a preset fuel and load curve primarily on just rpm signals from the ignition pickup on the stator.

On the motorbikes and scooters its a smaller problem since heads and cylinders can be had for less than $50 while on a vintage carbureted 455/460 it will be a much more costly fix if one pushes them when running lean. One would want to ensure that all the mechanical and vacuum systems in the distributor and carburetor are clean and functioning properly before driving them under load for any distance. One thing often overlooked on some of these vintage engines that have been sitting for an extended period of time is the status of the oil pump and pickup tube/screen. Pulling the pan and at the least ensuring the oil pickup is clean and free or debris can save you a lot of grief.

Its a balancing act and you do have to dot all the i's and cross all the t's as the expression goes as to timing, cooling, fuel flow, etc at all throttle positions and loads.
__________________
Neil V
2001 Winnebago Adventurer WFG35U
NeilV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2021, 11:42 PM   #67
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Seattle,WA/HB,CA./Fujieda-Japan
Posts: 849
What created a lot of heat in these BBC V8s was the engine were IMO to de-tuned from the factory. This is why it is extremely important to keep the motor at peak tune. Any item that falls out of whack will allow for more heat.


It was the same with the VW/Porsche Type-4 engines back in early 70s thru 83 before going water-cooled.


When I build a T-4 motor today the CR gets set at min 7.8 - 8.0 vs what VW had it set at 7.0 - 7.3. I'll also add a 4-1 exhaust, mild performance cam such as 73 Web camshaft. New AMC re-worked heads get 42x36mm valves with Porsche swivel adjusters. Then put on some 40 IDFs or Dells with an SVDA.


Timing will add heat to the oil with added timing. Load (More) will increase the cylinder head/s temp.


If you want to throw money at it go EFI, But the gain compared to a properly set up & tuned set of dual carbs is minimal when it comes to MPGs. Especially in a VW bus that can weigh nearly 2.5 tons fully loaded.
udid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2021, 08:56 AM   #68
Senior Member
 
GypsyR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Upstate SC
Posts: 2,969
Wait, what was this thread about?
GypsyR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2021, 09:14 AM   #69
Senior Member
 
BJohnsonsv's Avatar
 
Vintage RV Owners Club
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyR View Post
Wait, what was this thread about?


I love the evolution of the commentary. On behalf of the OP (me), I'd dare posit that the original post is about cooling system upgrades/overhauls on properly operating, vintage, carbureted engines. While I appreciate that it diverged to the fine-grained points of where excess heat might be generated in the combustion process of fuel injection and even in aircraft, it feels like its trending away from upgrades to the systems that remove the heat in normally operating carbureted automotive engines.

Don't get me wrong. It is vitally important that all engine operations must be checked and dialed so that there isn't a hot-running condition. Both identifying and resolving the source of excess heat and the removal of excess heat are important topics.
__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1972 RevCon 250 D/T
Build story on Dwell * Build photos on Flickr * Flatnose Frank on Instagram
BJohnsonsv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2021, 12:56 PM   #70
Senior Member
 
GypsyR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Upstate SC
Posts: 2,969
I wasn't complaining. Just, you know....poking with a stick.
GypsyR is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cooling, rust, upgrade, vintage



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Lesson Learned... Verify what your GPS is telling you in advance Richardk MH-General Discussions & Problems 35 05-29-2014 06:35 AM
If you can't trust Kellogg's who can you trust? Yaj Just Conversation 21 01-29-2012 08:27 AM
Lessons Learned JamesOne Winnebago Industries Owner's Forum 21 11-06-2005 12:53 PM
56 tech tips/lessons we have learned Henry Lahore RV Systems & Appliances 2 05-16-2005 02:43 PM

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:26 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.