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Old 06-14-2008, 07:04 PM   #1
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Ontario recent RV policy for drivers' licenses

About the only gains they made - ACTUAL axle weight when connected to the tow vehicle will be used rather than GVWR TTs and 5ers.

For MHs it will be actual weights of MH and toad rather than GVWR + GVWR.

Anyone with a MH and toad over 24,250 must have a D license. That means that several thousand owners in Ontario can park their motorhomes until they get their G license upgraded.

Don
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Old 06-14-2008, 07:04 PM   #2
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Ontario recent RV policy for drivers' licenses

About the only gains they made - ACTUAL axle weight when connected to the tow vehicle will be used rather than GVWR TTs and 5ers.

For MHs it will be actual weights of MH and toad rather than GVWR + GVWR.

Anyone with a MH and toad over 24,250 must have a D license. That means that several thousand owners in Ontario can park their motorhomes until they get their G license upgraded.

Don
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:21 AM   #3
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I think a few are on the road with out a Z on the D.Licenses also and yet drive a M.Home with Air Brakes...Think they care or will if they are told on the side of the road miles from home by the OPP or MTO---but with the fuel high as it is a few are parking the units any way...I had a e-test last week $94.00...Just glad I can still get to go camping but still think the parks need to lower the rates and clean up the p.ivy and trim the trees some are a big mess...Bushman
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Old 06-15-2008, 06:33 AM   #4
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Looks like it was a good idea to keep my 'A' License current!!!!

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Old 06-16-2008, 03:07 AM   #5
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You bet keep it as long as you can as I am also a holder of a AMZ but need it for My bus...John
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:56 PM   #6
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I wonder just how many owners with a G driving more than 24,250 will get a D? There have to be a 1000 or more in this category (maybe even 5,000). I wonder how many will find out?

I asked the RVDA if the MTO expected all these owners (and those with 5ers over the limit) to just park them until they get an upgraded license.

I had a Z but not D. Now, I don't need a D with my C Class.

Of course they are still going to allow foreigners (other provinces and the US) to come in with the equivalent of a G (as defined under the reciprocity agreements)and drive what WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DRIVE - and without a Z when air brakes.
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Old 06-17-2008, 05:13 PM   #7
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I'm still confused as to what license we need in Ontario to tow our 38 ft Titanium. The unit itself weighs 12,000 lb. I hear all sorts of stuff about actual weight and weight on the road. We still have a G license so are staying put till we get some clarification especially with our insurance company.

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Old 06-18-2008, 04:46 AM   #8
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sandra_ON:
I'm still confused as to what license we need in Ontario to tow our 38 ft Titanium. The unit itself weighs 12,000 lb. I hear all sorts of stuff about actual weight and weight on the road. We still have a G license so are staying put till we get some clarification especially with our insurance company.

Sandra_ON </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You should load your 5er with everything you carry (including the amount of water you would usually have) and connect it to your truck. Then go to a scale and weigh the combo and then drive forward so JUST the trailer wheels are on the scale. That is the weight that cannot exceed 4600 KG for a G license. If it does exceed 4600 KG (10,141 lbs) then you need a Class A to tow it. As I recall, at age 65 Class A license holders must have a medical every year and take the written and practical test every year as well.

I've asked what RV owners who weight in at more than 4600 KG are to do - park it and try and get a Class A license? IMO a significant issue. Meanwhile, owners from many other jurisdictions are exempt from this requirement if it is not a requirement of their home jurisdiction. I believe this is contrary to the Charter of Rights and would like to see it challenged (and soon). If it is dangerous for you to tow this unit with a G, then it is dangerous for ANYONE from any other jurisdiction to do the same thing and the Province is being negligent by allowing outsiders to do this in Ontario.
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Old 06-18-2008, 05:16 AM   #9
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For those who did not go to the original site. It is important to read the restrictions carefully and see what applies to you,

Class of driver's licence required to drive

A motor home only:
Class "G" if the motor home weighs 11,000 kgs (24,250 lbs) or less, or
Class "D" if the motor home weighs more than 11,000 kgs.
A motor home towing a trailer and/or a motor vehicle:
Class "G" if the combination weighs 11,000 kgs (24,250 lbs) or less,
Class "D" if the combination weighs more than 11,000 kgs, or
Class "A" if the weight of the towed vehicle or the combined weight of the towed vehicles exceeds 4,600 kgs (10,141 lbs).
A truck only:
Class "G" if the truck is registered for and weighs 11,000 kgs (24,250 lbs) or less, or
Class "D" if the truck is registered for or weighs more than 11,000 kgs.
A truck towing a trailer and/or a motor vehicle:
Class "G" if the truck is registered for and the combination weighs 11,000 kgs (24,250 lbs) or less,
Class "D" if the truck is registered for or the combination weighs more than 11,000 kgs, or
Class "A" if the weight of the towed vehicle or the combined weight of the towed vehicles exceeds 4,600 kgs (10,141 lbs).
A truck camper only:
Class "G" if the truck is registered for and the truck, with the camper, weighs 11,000 kgs (24,250 lbs) or less, or
Class "D" if the truck is registered for or the truck, with the camper, weighs more than 11,000 kgs.
A truck camper towing a trailer and/or motor vehicle:
Class "G" if the truck is registered for and the combination weighs 11,000 kgs (24,250 lbs) or less,
Class "D" if the truck is registered for or the combination weighs more than 11,000 kgs, or
Class "A" if the weight of the towed vehicle or the combined weight of the towed vehicles exceeds 4,600 kgs (10,141 lbs).
A car or SUV towing a trailer:
Class "G" if the combination weighs 11,000 kgs (24,250 lbs) or less,
Class "D" if the combination weighs more than 11,000 kgs, or
Class "A" if the towed trailer weighs more than 4,600 kgs (10,141 lbs).
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Old 06-18-2008, 04:31 PM   #10
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Law suit under the charter of rights!! You do not have a leg to stand on. Every state and province in N.A. has reciprocity for driver's license. Can you imagine the chaos if you had to have a special license for every jurisdiction?? Bite the bulllet and get the license. Are you afraid that maybe you cannot pass the test.?If so maybe you should not be on the road. If not you have nothing to worry about. Of course you could move to another province!!!!
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Old 06-18-2008, 05:36 PM   #11
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Sorry Moishe, you aren't up to snuff on this one at all.

I'm well aware of the reciprocity agreements and NOT all states and provinces have signed them.

I prepared a foot thick file and discussed it with my MPP who was the Liberal Whip at the time. Also with my Federal MP who is a lawyer and thinks it is a heck of a good Charter case. I had copies of reciprocity agreements between provinces and states. I'll bet you've never even seen one have you?

The point is that laws MUST be applied equally to all. In this case they are not. What the Province is saying is that I would be a danger to the public driving my previous Ambassador without a Class D. Well, if that is the case then the Province is negligent by letting someone in with the same (no, not the same - not even as good) license to drive the same vehicle. And not even as good - since I have a Z endorsement for the air brakes and most states don't require it - and as I recall neither does Quebec.

Under these reciprocity agreements I can move to BC and automatically be given a Class 5 license for my Ontario Class G - with NO testing whatsoever. That Class 5 will let me come back to Ontario and drive the Ambassador. Same applies with most other provinces and states.

How about the guy who moves from BC to Ontario. He has an Ambassador. He drives into the license office with his BC Class 5 license. Walks out with an Ontario Class G. Now he can't get in his MH and drive it.

The Minister knows I'm tempted to make the challenge (even thought my Kodiak is not over the limit - but I could get it there by packing my toad full). I spent well over a hundred hours researching this issue. It might surprise you to learn that the legal groups in Canada feel that a Charter challenge of retesting of seniors will be successful because retesting is discrimination based on age and that is contrary to the Charter.

I'm on our Community Policing Board. I asked our OPP Inspector to stand at the edge of my driveway and give me a ticket when I got to the public road with the Ambassador. He asked "Do you have a Z endorsement?" I said YES. He said don't look at us to get into this. They KNOW there is a huge problem here with thousands of owners in Ontario who don't have a D or in the case of large TTs or 5ers a Class A. They want no part of this mess. Further, RV dealers have been adamant that we DON'T need a D and have told customers that for ages. How many RV salespeople have a D license. Do they take potential buyers for test drives? Sure do.

Just imagine a Class Action from all the owners who have to park their MHs if they follow the policy.

The RVDA is working on this and they hope to eventually get the rules changed to 26,000 lbs for total weight of truck and trailer and 42,000 lbs for MH and toad. They have been talking for 2 years now and to say it is slow is an understatment. The Minister changed and the new guy seems to be pushing it along.

BTW, I use the internet archives to demonstrate to them that prior to June 2004 (we bought our first DP in May 2004) the MTO web site said a Class D was for a truck. In June 2004 it was changed to Vehicle - sweeping in RVs. The Drive Test site still says Class D is for trucks of any size. Even the MTO realizes that RVs are licensed as CARS.

So my friend, your thoughts on this are far from a slam dunk and things are going to get very interesting before it is over.

BTW2, I even found, in Hansard 15+ years ago (as I said I put in a lot of hours) that the air brake requirement was not really intended to apply to MHs. There has been a lot of sloppy work by the MTO in this area. Even their air brake written exam has errors because it ignores other than trucks.

The problem facing the MTO is how to fix this - they haven't figured that out yet. Some think that 2,000 RVs circling the Legislature and totally fouling up Toronto traffic might just stimulate their thought process (it sure worked for the farmers).

BTW3. A MH over 41ft and change was not legal in Ontario until recently. This was NOT a driver license issue but a road use issue. They finally solved the problem (so they thought) by requiring what amounts to an oversize vehicle permit. Well, that is nice BUT, are they going to require every MH over that size coming into the province to get such a permit? You might say why? I'll ask you if trucks longer than the law allows can cross the provincial border and operate legally? Can trucks over the Ontario weight limits come in and operate legally. NO to both. So, someone in the MTO wasn't thinking again. The patch they made was in response to the fact that MTO had been licensing MHs over the limit without realizing it. So, I'm going to hold their feet to the floor on this one as well.
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Old 06-19-2008, 04:11 AM   #12
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Well, you certainly have done your homework. But think about this. If the reg is reversed would a commercial operator have a case for the Charter? He has to have the special licnese and you do not. Is that fair? Perhaps reciprocity was not the correct word. All jurisdictions allow you to drive as a visitor without meeting their local requirements. Think of all the different rules for Farmers, learners, and truck drivers. Some states require you to have a non commercial CDL.That would mean we would be illegal driving in that state. But this is not the case. Pesonally I think that the MOT is second only to our left coast when it comes to their gestapo tactics. On the other hand I am strong believer in having some sort of requirement for people to drive large vehicles. What they should have done is created a special class of license. Let's call it a recreational license. The the comminity colleges should offer a course for people who would need this class of license. Would include : daily safety check, how to back up a trailer, the air barke endosement, how to maneuver a large vehicle, etc. A medical for those over 65 is great idea ( I am in that category). For some reason Canadian governments forget they are here to serve the public not make life difficult. I think MOT has the right idea but it is not implemented correctly. My province does not even offer an air brake course but you are required to have the endorsement. They issue you a single unit ticket but you must learn all about trailer air barkes!!!
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Old 06-21-2008, 08:41 PM   #13
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Very interesting reading material here IMO. I live in Manitoba and did have to write both a written test and then do a practical test for my air brake endorsement as my MH is air brake equipped. My class 5 license here in Manitoba is the equivalent of Ontario's Class G and allows me to drive a MH with a gross weight of 36,400 lbs but if I am to tow a toad or a had a Truck and trailer with a gross weight over 4,550 kgs I would have to get a class 2 license. Difference provinces with different rules and regulations as to what they deem important or necessary. I also do not have to have a "E"¯ test like I would have to have in Ontario. I will enjoy reading the posts that follow and hope they do not take a derogatory personal tone.
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Old 06-22-2008, 03:00 PM   #14
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Northern Canadian:

Are you sure on the Manitoba regulations. A class 2 license is for a bus with passengers. I don think those regulations apply to motorhomes. Could you enlighten us on where you got that information?

THanks
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