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elkski · 12-24-2016, 10:53 AM

Im not sure this is the right place to post this. I tried to post this on an old Kasai thread but it was to old. I will link that thread buts its not real relevant. I should post my solar panel inverter battery monitor install thread if I can find it.

First off let me wish you all a Happy holidays hope your all keeping warm and with the ones you love.
I am having an issue with my charging system in my 23 yr old lance camper but the inverter/charging/solar system install is 16 month old.
My battery was only 16 months old.. the Kasai about the same but the use was depressingly little since the install. I installed the system in the fall of 2015. I did take it out for a few short trips and was testing the Kasai's ability to allow me to use the drip coffee maker for 4 cups of joe. It worked at first but if battery was not topped off the battery low voltage warning would go off and sometimes kick off the inverter. It was drawing 90 amps to brew. I decided to brew using the gas range or maybe a water heater and french press like some suggested. I did bring the battery into the garage for the winter. I charge it a couple times during storage. After install I plugged it in occasionally, and sometimes for a month or more, but in the summer the solar panel seemed to really keep this unused battery topped up. I used to have to worry about overcharging with my original OEM crappy charger but I thought this multi stage charger was different. .Only thing running is the CO detector that is 25 years old and draws 300 ma. I now realize I should replace this with a CO LP detector every 5 years. Any way life got in the way and I didn't go camping again until a couple weeks ago. I had the battery in since a spring trip plan that got waylayed.
About this last trip which may be related to my current Kasai issue or not? Prior to the trip I had it plugged in to AC for several days to top off the battery and cool the fridge on AC like normal. We never planned to even turn on the Kasai on this off grid trip. It was cool at night so I was using the heater. The blower was drawing about 3 amps. I was happy that I only took the battery from 100% to 92% by morning after the first night running the heater. So I figured the sun would almost fill me up each day for that amount of heater. On the morning after the first night while cooking breakfast I heard a chirp from the CO detector. I thought maybe from cooking. Then a few minutes later while eating BF all of a sudden the over table LED light went to half bright. After breakfast the battery monitor is showing like 10 volts. hmmm... I never saw any massive current draw. Went on into Zion to hike to Angels landing. pushed the battery disconnect and used my volt meter to confirm 10 v?? did I lose a cell at breakfast like that?? 4 hours later after the hike the battery had popped up to 11.7 volts.. so I pushed in the breaker and the solar panel started charging. I wasn't all that happy but thought we could survive another night. There was a temperature swing of 30 degrees from cold morning till this time? everything was doing ok using basic lights until the evening and it the monitor has dropped to 10 v again... ??? we were out by the nice fire so I dont know what may have happened. all this time we never turned on the inverter that I know of. I wondered did my guest press the button? She said no. anyway the next morning headed to walmart and got a new battery. THe old one had plates showing in all the cells like it had boiled off some. In the lance camper removing the battery to check is a major pain and soon I wont be able to do it myself. new battery installed and all seemed fine for the next two nights camping. Came home to a cold snow strom . Fast forward to being home and wanting to drop the camper 7 days after our trip.. so I plug the camper in to fully charge up the battery before using he electric jacks. I had it on for two days. I even watched the battery monitor.... you plug in and the Kasai auto turned on. goes into a led sequence and after 20 seconds goes into bulk mode and I saw 10 A on the monitor so we are topping off the battery. Then I got out yesterday to drop the camper and no power at all. no monitor on dead. I measure Voltage at 2 volts.. yes 2. using a fluke??? so I test power at my outlet and at end of extension cord. then I suspect my 20 A to 15 A plug so I go to camping World to buy a new one.. same thing still not turning on Kasai. so I figure battery V is to low to turn on.. So I press the disconnect and use a portable charger at 2a for 2 hours and then battery monitor and Kasai turns on. I wanted a new adapter anyway but I'm getting a bit pissed at this time.
I plug it in but I am suspicious. I am watching and when it says it goes into bulk mode my monitor still shows -0.8 A. Thsi is the normal draw down with CO on and inverter in standby mode. hmmm seems like Kasai isn't charging when it thinks so. but even then it should shut down at 10 v or so and not drain me to 2v... no way the .3 am CO detector will drain a battery that fast... unless the CO detector fails like this. but I never saw a big current flow. I'm a bit pissed thinking my new battery was outside in 25 degrees and dead as a bone. I guess Its time to call Rowe and yank out that Kasai? I can bench test it to see if it outputs and 12v at all when charging. but that means I will need to hook it up to a dummy battery and 120 v. A pain but I can do. or do I just test it in the camper? What tests should I do? I cant really test the 12 v out lugs but I can test just a foot away in the battery compartment.
Why/How does a battery just work and then blink your LED table light to dim and go to 10v and how does a new battery get to 2v if the inverter is supposed to have a like 10.5 v shutoff? I am thinking I my old battery just died.. but why was it so low on water? I had never had my original charger boil off so much in much longer time periods.
No rush but maybe this will be some fun for some of you to post on. If this isn't the best place to post this let me know. I thought a basic charger inverter question was better here than in the camper area?

elkski · 12-24-2016, 10:54 AM

original solar install for schematic http://www.irv2.com/forums/f33/lance...er-253735.html

Kasai thread. another guy had an issue on his about the time I was installing mine. http://www.irv2.com/forums/f93/inver...on-256673.html

twinboat · 12-24-2016, 11:45 AM

TMI. You need to trim down the story and state the issue.

90 amps at 12 volts is 1080 watts. To much for a 1000 watt inverter.

Go thru all of your battery connections. Don't just look, loosen and clean them.

elkski · 12-24-2016, 12:07 PM

Connections in battery compartment, where all my shunt and disconnect are crammed , look brand new. Surprising since I outgassed . I can do this. I guess my question is why did I outgas that first battery. Why did everything go from great at 92% to big drop as shown in led table light and the 10 v. All this with no inverter use. Now with new battery I go to 2 volts. And it appears I inverter isn't charging. When it thinks so.

PS yes I realized my current drip coffee machine wasn't going to cut it.

gatorcq · 12-25-2016, 05:31 AM

Yes just the facts - not the whole long story. Just be specific:

Kiawah · 12-25-2016, 07:40 AM

Well my eyes glossed over after about 1/2 way thru your post.

But you sound technical enough to know that in your case it appears you have three devices which "can" provide input to your battery bank (engine alternator, solar charger, coach converter), and a number of devices which use battery power (inverter, all the 12v devices, etc).

When a device that is normally a charging device fails, it can consume power.

What I would do is to get a clamp on current meter, and begin to isolate the devices to find out what is sucking down your battery bank. It's possible that you've had two consecutive batteries that went bad, but unlikely unless you've bought super cheap batteries. It seems more probable that there is either something consuming more power than you know about, or one of the charging devices is defective.

For instance, if the engine alternator has a bad diode, it can actually use power when sitting there with a cold unused engine. You can sometimes detect it by feeling the temperature of the alternator and find it warmer than the engine.

Begin disconnecting the different connections, so you can determine what is using power.

elkski · 12-25-2016, 09:21 AM

yes my story was long... Sorry about that but I think all the little things can be important.

I like the alternator idea... That may explain it.. I did drive 15 miles that first morning before stopping to cook breakfast .. so the monitor said 92% and then sometime after the drive it went bonkers. That may actually be a cause for the kasai failure as well. I will disconnect that alternator connection. and explore that area. I dont have a sophisticated alternator separation device it is just an ignition relay. I should upgrade this area. I really hadn't thought that the alternator had been charging that much or maybe not working at all for years.

Kiawah · 12-25-2016, 11:34 AM

I'm not necessarily saying that the alternator is your problem, I just used that as an example of something that 'could' be drawing the current out that you might not expect. (Although I have had an alternator go bad in a car many years ago.)

You really need to get (buy or borrow) a clamp-on type ampmeter, and start diagnosis of what is, and what is not drawing current.

Here is an example of the type of ampmeter that I'm talking about. This one handles both AC and DC current measurement (some only do AC). I'm not necessarily endorsing this one and have only looked briefly at the features. I have a very old no-name meter myself, but they become invaluable with troubleshooting current drains. For instance if your battery is going dead and you see a 2 amp drain, you can start popping fuses (or unbolting/plugging connections) until the current drain stops. Then you know it's something on that particular fused circuit. It helps you to quickly isolate where the problem is. Could be anything that is connected to the 12v buss. Could be a relay staying picked on because the contacts are contacting, when it should have turned off de energizing a circuit.

It could be very expensive and time consuming just shotgunning things without really proving what the problem is.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Extech-In...435T/206342376

elkski · 12-25-2016, 01:42 PM

I have an Amp meter, I'm an engineer but Mechanical but understand electrons somewhat.
It may not be the alternator but I think you pointed out a problem with my original wiring.
The alternator goes into the DC distribution so it avoids the shunt so it will not show up on my TM2030 RV battery monitor current. This means I wouldn't have seen a problem here. hmmm
This also got me to thinking that if I am cooling the 3 way fridge down using AC and I drop input AC the Kasai will switch to inverter and try to keep 120 v power going to the fridge. I did see this before and it was like 6 amps if I remember...

I have a picture of my wiring diagram that I used.. in the 2nd pic I have added some stuff in pink that I probably should do. perhaps a breaker so that the Fridge AC is before the inverter as I use gas if no shore power and I have pointed out that my truck alternator may come in the circuit so as to avoid the shunt? I will have to open up the DC distribution center to see how this wiring is.

I really should just buy a new RV rig.

elkski · 12-25-2016, 06:29 PM

Won't be working in it anytime soon. Santa left a gift.

**pasdad1** · 12-25-2016, 08:16 PM

A new camper? Or the snow ?

Kiawah · 12-25-2016, 08:46 PM

Emailed you, I can send an electrical functional diagram which should give you some ideas.

elkski · 12-26-2016, 08:48 AM

I wish it was a new Lance on a new Ford... but mine is 91 F250 and a 93' 480 lance. I never see older on the road. The truck has just 105k miles and the lance about the same. Truck entire brake system is new and everything works on both Until now that is. But I do worry the structure of the lance is getting soft. I may have had my forward tiedowns to tight on my happy jacks this last trip.
I will have my bed to truck 4 points inspected.. I had body work many years ago and the body shop just cut off the 4 bolts and really destroyed the structural members. I may bother to have a body shop really beef it up. I use happy jack frame mounts on front and bumper on rear. But I notieced the front tiedown areas on the camper are pulling down exposing new siding in that area. Courtesy of Lance engineering, I do have nice plans showing the wood spar locations.

harryn · 12-29-2016, 11:17 AM

Just MHO, if you are wanting a battery to work in an RV when you need it, it has to be cared for all of the time, especially when stored. That usually means using a charger designed to pulse the battery, such as a "battery tender" type.

The battery use you describe is not unusual to want, but it is difficult for lead acid batteries to do both deep discharging and short term, high currents.

I have not seen anyone do this in an RV, but there is an ultra capacitor based product from maxwell that is used in semi trucks to start the engines. Normally it is mounted in parallel to at least one other battery. It supplements the main battery, not replaces it.

It stores energy through longer term charge up and then can discharge very fast, essentially independent of outside temperature. (perfect for coffee making on a cold morning)

Usually these things have significant self discharge, so plan to keep it topped off, either with a plug or solar. Here is a link in case it is interesting:

Maxwell Technologies Engine Starting Module