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Old 11-22-2020, 05:48 PM   #1
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MV Propane Question

Coach House Platinum 272XL, I went to have to tank filled (2/3 full already and was being used beforehand ) and the guy filling it showed me the fill hose and the relief hose ( SS braided reinforced lines) where both leaking as soon as he open the nozzle up. So thinking I was going to have to replace those 2 lines, so I started to empty the tank , the relief line still had vapor but the fill line was empty, I actually removed the fill line from the tank while it was 1/3 full , Finally the tank was empty and the lines were replaced and I'm planning on filling soon. My question is that the fill line went directly to the fitting on the tank, why was there no pressure at the fitting at all, is there a check valve or an overfill valve on the other side of the fitting. I had the fill line off when there was propane in the tank. My worry is that the fill inlet is clogged someway and when I go to fill it either it won't fill or possibly blow the new lines , At $400 and 12 hours I don't want to do this again .

Thanks Steve
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Old 11-22-2020, 06:07 PM   #2
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ON installed DOT tanks the fill valve in at the tank has a one way check valve..... when an extension hose or a fill hose is connected..... the pressure from the pump pushes open the the check valve in the connector and allows the tank to be filled.... when the fill process is complete, and the pressure is turned off.... that valve is still open until the operator starts to vent the line.... as soon as he vents the fill hose.... that valve snaps shut and he releases the liquid (later vapor) in the line or fittings.....


Its the same with the relief hose.... the guy who is filling the tank open's a 10% valve during filling.... when the tank becomes full, liquid will start to spray out the 10% valve or in your case the relief hose.... the operator closes the fill valve, than closes the 10% valve and the tank is full.... once he disconnects from your system I follow with a spray bottle of soap and water to verify there are no leaks before I close my hatch....


If those hoses or connections in the extension system are leaking they need to be fixed... what is a surprise is the cost.... a typical industrial hose company should have made up both those hoses with ends for way less than the 400 quote.... BTW those hoses have a stainless steel internal braid with a rubber coating to protect the steel braid... an outside stainless braid is not necessary to meet code.



What I'm clueless about is that in the industry the 10% valve or full valve or relief valve (this is not the OVER PRESSURE VALVE) is really close to 15 to 20 % of the tanks liquid capacity..... on the tank stamped on its ID label is both the water capacity and the propane capacity of the tank.....

the water capacity is if you filled the tank with water... and the propane capacity is the amount of propane it will hold with a valid expansion space required by law.... if the expansion space was not there.... the tank would heat in the sun.... the liquid in the tank have no place to expand so it forces open the pressure relief valve to prevent the rupture of the tank....


In a side note, those portable tanks for RVS had a 4 lobe fill valve and now they have a 3 lobe fill valve.... the industry couldn't train people to fill those tanks correctly and there were lots of damaged RV's and BBQ's from the tank popping the pressure relief valve (over pressure valve)... thus the change from the 4 lobe to the 3 lobe.... the 3 lobe valve has a float and limiting device so that the person filling the tank can't over fill it..... all the money spent to convert from the 4 lobe to the 3 lobe valve is nothing more than a training issue the propane industry couldn't overcome....
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Old 11-22-2020, 06:28 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jelag View Post
ON installed DOT tanks the fill valve in at the tank has a one way check valve..... when an extension hose or a fill hose is connected..... the pressure from the pump pushes open the the check valve in the connector and allows the tank to be filled.... when the fill process is complete, and the pressure is turned off.... that valve is still open until the operator starts to vent the line.... as soon as he vents the fill hose.... that valve snaps shut and he releases the liquid (later vapor) in the line or fittings.....


Its the same with the relief hose.... the guy who is filling the tank open's a 10% valve during filling.... when the tank becomes full, liquid will start to spray out the 10% valve or in your case the relief hose.... the operator closes the fill valve, than closes the 10% valve and the tank is full.... once he disconnects from your system I follow with a spray bottle of soap and water to verify there are no leaks before I close my hatch....


If those hoses or connections in the extension system are leaking they need to be fixed... what is a surprise is the cost.... a typical industrial hose company should have made up both those hoses with ends for way less than the 400 quote.... BTW those hoses have a stainless steel internal braid with a rubber coating to protect the steel braid... an outside stainless braid is not necessary to meet code.



What I'm clueless about is that in the industry the 10% valve or full valve or relief valve (this is not the OVER PRESSURE VALVE) is really close to 15 to 20 % of the tanks liquid capacity..... on the tank stamped on its ID label is both the water capacity and the propane capacity of the tank.....

the water capacity is if you filled the tank with water... and the propane capacity is the amount of propane it will hold with a valid expansion space required by law.... if the expansion space was not there.... the tank would heat in the sun.... the liquid in the tank have no place to expand so it forces open the pressure relief valve to prevent the rupture of the tank....


In a side note, those portable tanks for RVS had a 4 lobe fill valve and now they have a 3 lobe fill valve.... the industry couldn't train people to fill those tanks correctly and there were lots of damaged RV's and BBQ's from the tank popping the pressure relief valve (over pressure valve)... thus the change from the 4 lobe to the 3 lobe.... the 3 lobe valve has a float and limiting device so that the person filling the tank can't over fill it..... all the money spent to convert from the 4 lobe to the 3 lobe valve is nothing more than a training issue the propane industry couldn't overcome....

Interesting and informative answer JELAG
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Old 11-22-2020, 06:33 PM   #4
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I used to run vehicles on Propane, we had access to a keylock and self filled.... plus we converted vehicles to Propane for our own use... have more experience than I'd like to admit... GLAD I COULD HELP
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Old 11-22-2020, 06:44 PM   #5
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I used to run vehicles on Propane, we had access to a keylock and self filled.... plus we converted vehicles to Propane for our own use... have more experience than I'd like to admit... GLAD I COULD HELP
I have a question on running vehicles on propane. Is the propane taxed like diesel and gasoline is? I know for diesel you can get taxed or non taxed for farm use, so I was wondering.....

I asked my home propane company if they could fill my motorhome tanks. At first they said "no because we are not setup to charge taxes". I explained the propane was only used for heat, cooking and generator use. They relented and filled them. THe following year I had to go through the same song and dance story. First a "NO" then a reluctant "OK" answer.
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Old 11-22-2020, 09:38 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigd9 View Post
I have a question on running vehicles on propane. Is the propane taxed like diesel and gasoline is? I know for diesel you can get taxed or non taxed for farm use, so I was wondering.....

I asked my home propane company if they could fill my motorhome tanks. At first they said "no because we are not setup to charge taxes". I explained the propane was only used for heat, cooking and generator use. They relented and filled them. THe following year I had to go through the same song and dance story. First a "NO" then a reluctant "OK" answer.
Correct, road tax is due on fuel for OTR use. Many home LP suppliers do not want to fill MH tanks because the fill nozzle is different from home tanks. The adapter is not always carried on delivery trucks because they are expensive.
When I call to have the home LP tank filled, I must inform the office I want my MH filled too so they can bring a fill nozzle adapter.
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Old 11-22-2020, 10:22 PM   #7
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OP has a 'remote' fill and bleeder valve on his Class B
Propane Tank is mounted between frame rails so remote panel is used

*FILL Valve does have a spring loaded check valve so if you disconnect the hose that goes to remote fill panel it closes and no propane flows out
Also has an OPD (Overfill Protection Device...stops filling at 80% lquid level BUT should not be used as primary to stop filling
*Bleeder Valve (Fixed Liquid Level ....open ended stand pipe at 80% liquid level) should have a shutoff valve AT the propane TANK which allows removal of hose to remote panel w/o propane coming out
Bleeder Valve should be opened during refilling...vapor will leak out and then when 80% liquid level is reached the vapor will turn to liquid propane...stop filling and close bleeder valve

New hoses....bleeder shutoff at tank open...should be already for refilling
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Old 11-22-2020, 10:49 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jelag View Post
ON installed DOT tanks the fill valve in at the tank has a one way check valve..... when an extension hose or a fill hose is connected..... the pressure from the pump pushes open the the check valve in the connector and allows the tank to be filled.... when the fill process is complete, and the pressure is turned off.... that valve is still open until the operator starts to vent the line.... as soon as he vents the fill hose.... that valve snaps shut and he releases the liquid (later vapor) in the line or fittings.....

OP has a Class B Motorhome.....\
They do not have DOT tanks (portable cylinders) MHs have Fixed ASME TANKS
Fill Valve does have a spring loaded shutoff so no propane comes out unless fill hose/adapter are screwed into Fill Valve/also has OPD as part of Fill Valve



Its the same with the relief hose.... the guy who is filling the tank open's a 10% valve during filling.... when the tank becomes full, liquid will start to spray out the 10% valve or in your case the relief hose.... the operator closes the fill valve, than closes the 10% valve and the tank is full.... once he disconnects from your system I follow with a spray bottle of soap and water to verify there are no leaks before I close my hatch....

Bleeder Valve is a Fixed liquid level indicator...open ended stand pipe that is set to 80% Liquid Level.
Cracked Open during filling process...vapor comes out. Then when 80% Liquid Propane Level is achieved liquid will spew out...stop filling and close the Bleeder Valve



If those hoses or connections in the extension system are leaking they need to be fixed... what is a surprise is the cost.... a typical industrial hose company should have made up both those hoses with ends for way less than the 400 quote.... BTW those hoses have a stainless steel internal braid with a rubber coating to protect the steel braid... an outside stainless braid is not necessary to meet code.



What I'm clueless about is that in the industry the 10% valve or full valve or relief valve (this is not the OVER PRESSURE VALVE) is really close to 15 to 20 % of the tanks liquid capacity..... on the tank stamped on its ID label is both the water capacity and the propane capacity of the tank.....

the water capacity is if you filled the tank with water... and the propane capacity is the amount of propane it will hold with a valid expansion space required by law.... if the expansion space was not there.... the tank would heat in the sun.... the liquid in the tank have no place to expand so it forces open the pressure relief valve to prevent the rupture of the tank....

ASME LP Tank Components --- Left to Right
*Level Gauge with magnetic float assembly
*Pressure Relief Valve Stand Pipe (Open end in Vapor Zone)
*Fill Valve with OPD Float assembly
*Bleeder Valve/Fixed Liquid Level Stand Pipe (Open end AT 80% Liquid Level)
*Service Valve Stand Pipe (Open end in Vapor Zone)




In a side note, those portable tanks for RVS had a 4 lobe fill valve and now they have a 3 lobe fill valve.... the industry couldn't train people to fill those tanks correctly and there were lots of damaged RV's and BBQ's from the tank popping the pressure relief valve (over pressure valve)... thus the change from the 4 lobe to the 3 lobe.... the 3 lobe valve has a float and limiting device so that the person filling the tank can't over fill it..... all the money spent to convert from the 4 lobe to the 3 lobe valve is nothing more than a training issue the propane industry couldn't overcome....
Prior to 1998 DOT Portable Cylinders had POL Valves (Prest-O-Lite) --- various styles of handwheels used
After 1998 DOT Portable Cylinders had to have OPD ...triangle handwheels

Left is a POL ---Right is an OPD


OPD Valve has several components
*Spring Loaded shut off in the hose connection opening
*Bleeder Valve screw connected to a dip tube set at 80% liquid level
*Relief Valve
*Float device that stops filling at 80% Liquid Level (some float assemblies use vertical movement and some floats go horizontal when level is reached)


Float type that goes horizontal




Training is 'Local' issue...even with training and safety devices IDIOTS are still out there filling LP Tanks (MH) and LP Cylinders (TT/TC/FW)
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Old 11-23-2020, 05:48 AM   #9
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Somewhere in the post it was mentioned that the bleed line has a shutoff at the tank.

That's there so you don't have to empty the tank to replace that line.
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Old 11-23-2020, 12:16 PM   #10
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UPDATE** Stopped and had it filled this morning, it took 15 gal before the cutoff valve kicked in. No problems, thanks everyone for the ease of mind and advice. Old-Biscuit thanks for the great post
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Old 11-23-2020, 12:37 PM   #11
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UPDATE** Stopped and had it filled this morning, it took 15 gal before the cutoff valve kicked in. No problems, thanks everyone for the ease of mind and advice. Old-Biscuit thanks for the great post
15 gallons....tank was EMPTY as that is the listed capacity for your Class B
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Old 11-23-2020, 02:26 PM   #12
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15 gallons....tank was EMPTY as that is the listed capacity for your Class B
Yes, he drained it before he replaced the bleed line.

Wonder if he purged it.
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Old 11-23-2020, 08:28 PM   #13
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Yes, he drained it before he replaced the bleed line.

Wonder if he purged it.
If OP didn't OPEN tank by removing any component and closed bleeder shutoff shortly after emptying tank...no purge needed

Now if a Fill Valve is removed/replaced, a Relief Valve R/R, a Service/Vapor Valve R/R etc ---- best to have tank purged

But just bleeding off vapor until empty...probably not an issue as I doubt much air was induced into tank.
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Old 11-24-2020, 09:50 AM   #14
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If you haven't already you should join the Coach House Enthusiasts group on FB. Always someone willing to help.
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