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Old 01-26-2021, 08:02 PM   #1
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New batteries installed

I went ahead and upgraded to Lifeling GPL-6CT batteries. Had plenty of space for the taller batts. Installed myself. No matter what I did, I kept getting corrosion on the old batteries

Anyone know if the intellipower 9100 converter charger is a good charger for these batteries or do I need to get a new converter/charger too?

Damn things were expensive (batts) but NO MORE MAINTENANCE 😀
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Old 01-26-2021, 11:28 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV-Writer View Post
I went ahead and upgraded to Lifeling GPL-6CT batteries. Had plenty of space for the taller batts. Installed myself. No matter what I did, I kept getting corrosion on the old batteries

Anyone know if the intellipower 9100 converter charger is a good charger for these batteries or do I need to get a new converter/charger too?

Damn things were expensive (batts) but NO MORE MAINTENANCE 😀

The Lifeline's are indeed expensive. They can last a long time. As expensive as they are, they're just as, if not more particular about recharging. Not to discourage you, but chronic over or under charging will lead to short life. Battery life for Lifeline's is measured in cycles- e.g. number of re-charge cycles. Read the manual to get an idea of how many cycles they'll deliver at a given SOC or DOD (state of charge/depth of discharge). They're also sensitive to temperature and do best with a temperature-regulated charging source. They're not what you'd consider robust- to the extent that they'll tolerate abuse, so don't abuse them and you'll enjoy superior performance and very long life. A 800 AH bank can be charged at up to 5C, or 4,000 amps. That's some heavy duty cabling!



Choosing AGM's and particularly Lifeline's starts not with the batteries, but the rest of the system. You need a charging system that can support the charging profile that AGM's require, otherwise, you're wasting your money. Changing to a premium battery just amplifies problems of an inadequate charging system. So, to answer your question about the intellipower 9000: probably not. It says "AGM" but not all AGM's use the same profile! Lifelines are atypical, and they should have temperature regulation.



Your charging system should be able to charge per the profile specified by Lifeline. The Lifeline manual is comprehensive, and contains every detail you need to know to insure your expensive batteries aren't abused to an early death. So start there!


A couple of tips prioritized for best performance and long life:
  • Avoid discharging below 50% DOD before recharging.
  • Your charger must have adequate ampacity (.2C)- see manual
  • Avoid chronic under charging. Bring batteries to FULL CHARGE regularly.
  • Stopping charging when your charger reaches float voltage isn't a full charge! It cumulatively reduces capacity, and ultimately, longevity. It's a bad routine.
  • From float to full charge can take multiples of the time from bulk to float. It's where the capacity is replenished.
  • Gauging SOC with only a voltmeter is inherently inaccurate. A battery monitor with a coulomb counter gives you meaningful info.
For those with Magnum inverters and Lifeline batteries, the best profile is to set the voltages to what Lifeline specs rather than using a preset.
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Old 01-27-2021, 12:37 AM   #3
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Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bsipe01 View Post
The Lifeline's are indeed expensive. They can last a long time. As expensive as they are, they're just as, if not more particular about recharging. Not to discourage you, but chronic over or under charging will lead to short life. Battery life for Lifeline's is measured in cycles- e.g. number of re-charge cycles. Read the manual to get an idea of how many cycles they'll deliver at a given SOC or DOD (state of charge/depth of discharge). They're also sensitive to temperature uand do best with a temperature-regulated charging source. They're not what you'd consider robust- to the extent that they'll tolerate abuse, so don't abuse them and you'll enjoy superior performance and very long life. A 800 AH bank can be charged at up to 5C, or 4,000 amps. That's some heavy duty cabling!



Choosing AGM's and particularly Lifeline's starts not with the batteries, but the rest of the system. You need a charging system that can support the charging profile that AGM's require, otherwise, you're wasting your money. Changing to a premium battery just amplifies problems of an inadequate charging system. So, to answer your question about the intellipower 9000: probably not. It says "AGM" but not all AGM's use the same profile! Lifelines are atypical, and they should have temperature regulation.



Your charging system should be able to charge per the profile specified by Lifeline. The Lifeline manual is comprehensive, and contains every detail you need to know to insure your expensive batteries aren't abused to an early death. So start there!


A couple of tips prioritized for best performance and long life:
  • Avoid discharging below 50% DOD before recharging.
  • Your charger must have adequate ampacity (.2C)- see manual
  • Avoid chronic under charging. Bring batteries to FULL CHARGE regularly.
  • Stopping charging when your charger reaches float voltage isn't a full charge! It cumulatively reduces capacity, and ultimately, longevity. It's a bad routine.
  • From float to full charge can take multiples of the time from bulk to float. It's where the capacity is replenished.
  • Gauging SOC with only a voltmeter is inherently inaccurate. A battery monitor with a coulomb counter gives you meaningful info.
For those with Magnum inverters and Lifeline batteries, the best profile is to set the voltages to what Lifeline specs rather than using a preset.
So essentially I need to upgrade my converter/charger too? Any recommendation for a replacement? Fyi - I do not have an inverter, so just a charger/converter that will meet lifeline needs is all I need.

Thanks for great info
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Old 01-27-2021, 07:33 AM   #4
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You really upgraded your batteries do you also a larger inverter to use/make 120v from them. What your intentions for boondocking . Are you planning on a higher end inverter charger.
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Old 01-27-2021, 10:46 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 153stars View Post
You really upgraded your batteries do you also a larger inverter to use/make 120v from them. What your intentions for boondocking . Are you planning on a higher end inverter charger.
Yup, I do a lot of boondocking, but run my genny 2hrs in am and 2hrs at night. We dont use a lot of power. No inverter (and dont need one) - just need a converter/charger that will work with these Lifeline batteries. No solar in my future either unless I get a portable array.
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Old 01-27-2021, 10:54 AM   #6
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You don't say how many batteries you installed but you want at least 15% of your AH capacity for charging them.

If 2, the a 45 Amp converter/charger will do it.

If you installed 4 of them, now your looking at a 90 amp converter/charger.

They sell a Charge Wizard that will convert dumb chargers into smart chargers. Its about $25.

You spent a lot of money on AGM batteries. Did you know that they need to be fully charged often. What's often ?, I don't know.
You may want to read the Lifeline Maintance manual.

You may want to think about a battery monitor, to know is they are fully recharged, rather then guessing at 2 hours of generator time.
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Old 01-27-2021, 11:42 AM   #7
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Lifeline battery charging

Quote:
Originally Posted by RV-Writer View Post
Yup, I do a lot of boondocking, but run my genny 2hrs in am and 2hrs at night. We dont use a lot of power. No inverter (and dont need one) - just need a converter/charger that will work with these Lifeline batteries. No solar in my future either unless I get a portable array.
Bsipe01 has got is correct. Use the battery manufactures specifications for best results. If you do not understand the specs, please ask. Don't hesitate to ask the Lifeline support desk as well. Lifeline has done extensive testing using different rates. Use their experience.

Lifeline's do best at high charge rates. This tends to require modifying the charge voltage to account for battery temperature. You can use lower charge rates and still get pretty good performance. You probably need a new expensive charger to charge faster and monitor battery temperature for optimum performance. Check your charger manual for its capabilities. Compare them to the battery specs.

Charging for 2 hours at a time tends to allow sulfation to occur. The batteries never get a full clean charge. Large sulfate crystals form on the plates. They are hard or impossible to remove. They need a full 14 to 18 hour charge periodically, possibly every 1 to 2 weeks. More often is better for long life.

Always store with a full clean 14 to 18 hour charge. Storing for three months at terminal voltages below 12.4 volts can cause sever sulfation. I keep mine above 12.7 volts. A full 14 hour charge is required before voltage drops below 12.4.

AGM batteries are a little more robust than flooded cells in some ways, and more fragile in other ways. Most AGM's tolerate deep discharge better than flooded. Most designs can withstand flat out discharge a few times with no noticeable effect. This is due to the design of the glass mats and amount of electrolyte in them. They run out of electrolyte before they run out of lead.

On the other hand, high voltage charging for too long causes many to vent. Venting is a permanent loss. There is no way for consumers to replace the lost water. Lifelines resist this much more than other designs.

It is my guess that Lifeline AGM's are not the best for small RV solar installations. Solar tends to charge at less than optimum rates.

However, using a high capacity charger run from a generator in early morning before sun is high can provide the needed bulk charge. Solar then provides the long slow slog to finish the charge. Even so, a full clean charge will be need periodically.

Battery University is a pretty good source for typical batteries. Keep in mind that Lifeline's are not typical.

Battery University https://batteryuniversity.com/

How does the Lead Acid Battery Work? https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...ased_batteries

Charging lead acid batteries https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...d_acid_battery

GEL https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...d_acid_battery

AGM https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/..._glass_mat_agm

How to Charge and When to Charge? https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...o_charge_table

How to Store Batteries https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...tore_batteries

Summary of Do’s and Don’ts https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/..._battery_table

I wish you good luck and happy trails ahead!
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Old 01-27-2021, 12:09 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twinboat View Post
You don't say how many batteries you installed but you want at least 15% of your AH capacity for charging them.

If 2, the a 45 Amp converter/charger will do it.

If you installed 4 of them, now your looking at a 90 amp converter/charger.

They sell a Charge Wizard that will convert dumb chargers into smart chargers. Its about $25.

You spent a lot of money on AGM batteries. Did you know that they need to be fully charged often. What's often ?, I don't know.
You may want to read the Lifeline Maintance manual.

You may want to think about a battery monitor, to know is they are fully recharged, rather then guessing at 2 hours of generator time.

Thanks Twinboat. I have the 9160 model charger (60amps) 13.6volts output with the charge wizard

I have 2 lifeline batteries wired to provide 12v power to rig. I sit in RV oarks plugged in with 50 amp for several months, then boondock on generator off and on for 6 months. I often sit at my family property with only a regular 110 plug in between boondocking but stay for several weeks. I can arrange to be in RV parks every couple of weeks for a couple of days to charge batteries. We really do not use alot of power.

Fridge is on propane, we run genny when we use microwave or other appliances. We have led lights. Water heater is on propane when boondocking.

This rig has no inverter. So usually we use very little power.

I need to get a battery monitor and a better charger i think.
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Old 01-27-2021, 12:20 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Persistent View Post
Bsipe01 has got is correct. Use the battery manufactures specifications for best results. If you do not understand the specs, please ask. Don't hesitate to ask the Lifeline support desk as well. Lifeline has done extensive testing using different rates. Use their experience.

Lifeline's do best at high charge rates. This tends to require modifying the charge voltage to account for battery temperature. You can use lower charge rates and still get pretty good performance. You probably need a new expensive charger to charge faster and monitor battery temperature for optimum performance. Check your charger manual for its capabilities. Compare them to the battery specs.

Charging for 2 hours at a time tends to allow sulfation to occur. The batteries never get a full clean charge. Large sulfate crystals form on the plates. They are hard or impossible to remove. They need a full 14 to 18 hour charge periodically, possibly every 1 to 2 weeks. More often is better for long life.

Always store with a full clean 14 to 18 hour charge. Storing for three months at terminal voltages below 12.4 volts can cause sever sulfation. I keep mine above 12.7 volts. A full 14 hour charge is required before voltage drops below 12.4.

AGM batteries are a little more robust than flooded cells in some ways, and more fragile in other ways. Most AGM's tolerate deep discharge better than flooded. Most designs can withstand flat out discharge a few times with no noticeable effect. This is due to the design of the glass mats and amount of electrolyte in them. They run out of electrolyte before they run out of lead.

On the other hand, high voltage charging for too long causes many to vent. Venting is a permanent loss. There is no way for consumers to replace the lost water. Lifelines resist this much more than other designs.

It is my guess that Lifeline AGM's are not the best for small RV solar installations. Solar tends to charge at less than optimum rates.

However, using a high capacity charger run from a generator in early morning before sun is high can provide the needed bulk charge. Solar then provides the long slow slog to finish the charge. Even so, a full clean charge will be need periodically.

Battery University is a pretty good source for typical batteries. Keep in mind that Lifeline's are not typical.

Battery University https://batteryuniversity.com/

How does the Lead Acid Battery Work? https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...ased_batteries

Charging lead acid batteries https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...d_acid_battery

GEL https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...d_acid_battery

AGM https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/..._glass_mat_agm

How to Charge and When to Charge? https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...o_charge_table

How to Store Batteries https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...tore_batteries

Summary of Do’s and Don’ts https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/..._battery_table

I wish you good luck and happy trails ahead!


Thank you Paul. The “manual” I got when I bought the batteries has a small snippet about charging (See pic)

My charger is 60amp

I can charge for longer periods when boondocking 4 hours before bed and 2hrs in morning. I will get a battery monitor installed.

I really do not understand the specs and will watch all the videos you linked above. My batteries are in a cabinet - no idea how hot it gets in there - is that the temperature you are referring to or the actual battery temperature? Does a battery monitor tell me what I need? how often would I need to check a monitor?

thanks all really appreciate it
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Old 01-27-2021, 02:28 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV-Writer View Post
Thanks Twinboat. I have the 9160 model charger (60amps) 13.6volts output with the charge wizard

I have 2 lifeline batteries wired to provide 12v power to rig. I sit in RV oarks plugged in with 50 amp for several months, then boondock on generator off and on for 6 months. I often sit at my family property with only a regular 110 plug in between boondocking but stay for several weeks. I can arrange to be in RV parks every couple of weeks for a couple of days to charge batteries. We really do not use alot of power.

Fridge is on propane, we run genny when we use microwave or other appliances. We have led lights. Water heater is on propane when boondocking.

This rig has no inverter. So usually we use very little power.

I need to get a battery monitor and a better charger i think.
Here is a screenshot of the manual link.Click image for larger version

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Old 01-27-2021, 04:29 PM   #11
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More information, that's always helpful. Some more related info for you..some of it's just reiteration.

  • You have 2- 6V batteries wired series for 12V. The GPL-6CT is rated 300 AH.
  • 2 of them in series makes a 12V/300AH bank.(In parallel, you'd get 6V/600AH)
  • Your charger should be a minimum of 60A (0.2C=60 where C=total AH of the bank) They can accept a charge rate up to 4C, that would be 300*4 or 1,200A. Not happening!
  • Limiting your DOD to 50% yields a usable capacity of 150AH.
  • Time to Reach Full Charge = [(DOD/100) x Rated Capacity (Ah) ÷ Rated Output of Charger (Amp)] + 2 hours. So if you discharge your 300AH bank to 50%, that's 50/100X300/60+2 or 4.5 hrs to recharge. That gives you some perspective.
  • Temperature/float table is below, it relates to the battery core temp. The wider your battery temps swing, the more important temp regulation becomes. So not an absolute "must have" if your batteries live a sheltered life.
  • Running the charger (generator) for short boosts does a couple things- it increases the number of charge/discharge cycles. Remember, battery life is measured in cycles. It brings the SOC up marginally, and does a poor job of de-sulfating the battery. Sulfating a battery is death for the battery. AGM's won't tolerate it. Prefer longer, less frequent generator runs. Fewer cycles, longer life.
  • Others mentioned the importance of regularly bringing the batteries to FULL CHARGE. See a common thread there? It is absolutely CRITICAL to longevity and keeping the bank at maximum capacity.There's no cut & dried- if you could have every charge be a FULL CHARGE that would be best-(only in a perfect world, so compromise).
  • SOLAR does a fabulous job of finishing charging batteries to FULL CHARGE. Run the generator in the morning, by 10AM or so the sun is high enough for solar to take over and the bank can come to 100% charge. Solar with enough capacity to have 5-10A available to the bank would be a huge help, and keep the batteries in peak health.
  • CHARGER - Optimum? - a "smart" charger that has programmable voltage set points for absorb and float, and is temperature compensated, 60A capacity or close. Recall the calculations above- bigger is faster to a point. The AGM's are good at sucking up big amps to get to float, then it's low amps for a long time. The float is what takes the time, but it's the most important phase. That's why solar is a great solution. It can keep charging that 10A or so for the best part of the day so you can cut your generator time significantly. If you do a bit of research, you'll learn that the Lifelines have a different profile than other AGM's. The closer your charger can get to that voltage, the happier and healthier your Lifelines will be, and the longer they'll live.
Give yourself a pat, you're ahead of the game because you're asking the questions and doing the homework. I, OTOH asked "why did my expensive Lifelines crap out so soon???..... AARRRGH!!!
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Old 01-27-2021, 06:34 PM   #12
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WOW thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bsipe01 View Post
More information, that's always helpful. Some more related info for you..some of it's just reiteration.

  • You have 2- 6V batteries wired series for 12V. The GPL-6CT is rated 300 AH.
  • 2 of them in series makes a 12V/300AH bank.(In parallel, you'd get 6V/600AH)
  • Your charger should be a minimum of 60A (0.2C=60 where C=total AH of the bank) They can accept a charge rate up to 4C, that would be 300*4 or 1,200A. Not happening!
  • Limiting your DOD to 50% yields a usable capacity of 150AH.
  • Time to Reach Full Charge = [(DOD/100) x Rated Capacity (Ah) ÷ Rated Output of Charger (Amp)] + 2 hours. So if you discharge your 300AH bank to 50%, that's 50/100X300/60+2 or 4.5 hrs to recharge. That gives you some perspective.
  • Temperature/float table is below, it relates to the battery core temp. The wider your battery temps swing, the more important temp regulation becomes. So not an absolute "must have" if your batteries live a sheltered life.
  • Running the charger (generator) for short boosts does a couple things- it increases the number of charge/discharge cycles. Remember, battery life is measured in cycles. It brings the SOC up marginally, and does a poor job of de-sulfating the battery. Sulfating a battery is death for the battery. AGM's won't tolerate it. Prefer longer, less frequent generator runs. Fewer cycles, longer life.
  • Others mentioned the importance of regularly bringing the batteries to FULL CHARGE. See a common thread there? It is absolutely CRITICAL to longevity and keeping the bank at maximum capacity.There's no cut & dried- if you could have every charge be a FULL CHARGE that would be best-(only in a perfect world, so compromise).
  • SOLAR does a fabulous job of finishing charging batteries to FULL CHARGE. Run the generator in the morning, by 10AM or so the sun is high enough for solar to take over and the bank can come to 100% charge. Solar with enough capacity to have 5-10A available to the bank would be a huge help, and keep the batteries in peak health.
  • CHARGER - Optimum? - a "smart" charger that has programmable voltage set points for absorb and float, and is temperature compensated, 60A capacity or close. Recall the calculations above- bigger is faster to a point. The AGM's are good at sucking up big amps to get to float, then it's low amps for a long time. The float is what takes the time, but it's the most important phase. That's why solar is a great solution. It can keep charging that 10A or so for the best part of the day so you can cut your generator time significantly. If you do a bit of research, you'll learn that the Lifelines have a different profile than other AGM's. The closer your charger can get to that voltage, the happier and healthier your Lifelines will be, and the longer they'll live.
Give yourself a pat, you're ahead of the game because you're asking the questions and doing the homework. I, OTOH asked "why did my expensive Lifelines crap out so soon???..... AARRRGH!!!


Thank you - I really appreciate your help- clarifications needed plz

#1 - How do you know when you are at say 50% charge/dod?
—-Is it best to NOT recharge until I DO get down to 50% THEN run genny?

#2 - How do you know core temp?

#3 - Anyone know of a portable solar system that will give a 5-10 amp given full sunlight?

#4 - With a volt meter, what should my lifeline battery bank be at to indicate fully charged? 13.6v or ?

#5 - Anyone on the board know of a 60 amp charger/converter with programmable set pointsfor absorb / float?

Per above chart, at 70 degrees core temp I should be at 14.41 absorption and 13.39 float voltages. Per progressive (i called them), My progressive dynamics charger (per below chart) says it runs at 14.41volts in absorption (bulk) and 13.6 volts (but this is its MAX output at 60amps max. Absorption runs for 4 hours then automatically goes to float. That means I will likely never get a good float charge when boondocking without solar or better charger.

So lets see what others with lifeline batteries use for chargers and battery management systems (should I start a new thread for that you think?)

Again, I really appreciate the help - made a mistake buying these but stuck with them for now so have to figure it out 😀
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Old 01-27-2021, 07:48 PM   #13
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Battery life is *not* measured in cycles, it's just a reference number based against depth of discharge. Cycles do not run things, amp hours run things. Batteries have a finite number of Ah they can potentially deliver before they expire from time or any number of life shortening events. Ah throughput is the beginning and end to why we pay for and keep batteries around.

There is nothing magic about 50% unless you are cycling your batteries very hard -daily- week after week, month after month. There are logistical reasons to monitor depth of discharge and pick operating points but battery longevity isn't among them. Not only is the "50% rule" arbitrary based on the battery and discharge parameters but even under controlled conditions the difference in delivered Ah is small. The most cost efficient battery is one you wear out and not one that's pampered, with the owner doting over the battery monitor fearful of every tick of the percent meter only to throw half of it's potential life away when the calendar catches up to it and it craps out anyway.

Batteries are like tires, you're more likely to age them out than wear them out so use 'em and charge 'em while you can.

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Old 01-27-2021, 08:16 PM   #14
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Thank you - I really appreciate your help- clarifications needed plz
No sweat. I really made some boneheaded moves with batteries in the past, I'm happy to share what my tuition covered in my battery ed courses.


#1 - How do you know when you are at say 50% charge/dod?
—-Is it best to NOT recharge until I DO get down to 50% THEN run genny?
Best way is a battery monitor. Here budget is a biggie. A smart monitor by Balmar or Victron will set you back $200+. A big plus is a battery monitor can give you cumulative amp hours, so a more accurate accounting of energy use & trends. The alternative is a digital voltmeter, not nearly as accurate, but with some practice and some experience, you can get a good idea of SOC. Since your loads are light, you'll be able to get pretty close with a digital voltmeter connected to the battery bank. Mount it where you can keep an eye on it without hunting for it. You'll learn trends and get a "sense" for it. Still, you already have a hobby, right? Soo.... temper all that with Mark's logic in above post ^^^^.

Graph below relates SOC & life cycles. So, 10% less DOD for 50% more cycles... Revealing.
#2 - How do you know core temp?
Shoot the battery with an IR meter. Your bank probably stays a pretty consistent temp, so it's not a big issue. MANY AGM banks live in marine engine rooms where temps can go up to 130F. That's an issue.
#3 - Anyone know of a portable solar system that will give a 5-10 amp given full sunlight?
Amazon lists some 100W portables in $200 range. If you can work that into your overall picture, it'll probably be the biggest bang for your buck, overall. Size as big as you can go with all things considered. More stuff to store!! Solar in the woods? It's never simple!!
#4 - With a volt meter, what should my lifeline battery bank be at to indicate fully charged? 13.6v or ?
12.8V= 100% SOC @ OCV (Open Circuit Voltage) - Charger turned off, no loads, at rest for a couple hours (it's in the Lifeline manual). 12.5V=75%, 12.2=50%. As you get familiar with it, your guesswork will gain accuracy. That you're aware of it is a huge plus.
#5 - Anyone on the board know of a 60 amp charger/converter with programmable set pointsfor absorb / float?

Per above chart, at 70 degrees core temp I should be at 14.41 absorption and 13.39 float voltages. Per progressive (i called them), My progressive dynamics charger (per below chart) says it runs at 14.41volts in absorption (bulk) and 13.6 volts (but this is its MAX output at 60amps max. Absorption runs for 4 hours then automatically goes to float. That means I will likely never get a good float charge when boondocking without solar or better charger.
Absorption voltage isn't as critical, your float voltage is a bit high, but that's better than low. More important is the length of the float cycle. Chances are, you'll never overcharge when you're charging with the generator unless you run it all day long. Most AGM's die from chronic undercharging. So IMHO, the length of the cycle is more important than the .3V the charge voltage is off. Bigger would be some faster, but--Net - you can probably do an adequate job with the charger you have...
So lets see what others with lifeline batteries use for chargers and battery management systems (should I start a new thread for that you think?)
Many are using Victron or Magnum and with a battery monitor module, they do it all. I think you can probably maintain your bank without breaking the bank. You're asking the right questions and getting the gist of what's needed, so your focus is on the stuff that can make or break longevity of the bank. You just don't want to break your bank in the process.
Again, I really appreciate the help - made a mistake buying these but stuck with them for now so have to figure it out ��
Mistake?? Not so much. The saying "you don't know whatcha don't know..." You're finding it out when the batteries are new; you're learning now what will make them last longer, so you're waay ahead of the game!! Annd... they're indisputably great batteries.
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