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Old 07-18-2021, 06:59 PM   #1
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QUALITY - A magic word

A lot of people assume when you pay more the quality goes up. When it comes to RV's it seems quality is a magic word and judging quality is very elusive because it is well hidden.

See my picture to see what I am talking about. You might also call it workman ship. I believe it is a combination of design and workmanship. The picture is of my kitchen cabinet with the countertop removed. The main braces were stapled. That was the design. This is poor quality and on a RV that was considered better than most and about twice the price as the so called low end RV of the day.

So the next time you brag about a brand that is high quality, is it really better or do they have better advertising campaign then the other guy.
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Old 07-18-2021, 07:40 PM   #2
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most if not all cut corners in areas that you can’t see. This was also true of high end 50’ sail boats. Everything visible was polished and finished but crawl into the anchor chain locker or lazarette and you’d be very disappointed with fit and finish.
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Old 07-19-2021, 05:55 AM   #3
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It's not the same as building a house, conventional home building techniques would fail miserably bouncing down the road, and weigh 3 times as much. In your picture the part looks square, the end cuts are square, the wall looks like it leans out at the top but I know it can't be as bad as the picture makes it look.

I see staples which a lot of people consider a poor fastener, but they allow movement which is necessary in an RV. I would like to see them a little better distributed across the width of the uprights. Staples will also penetrate thin "white wood" without splitting it, which anything much thicker than a staple won't do.

I've been 'in' a lot of my 93 Beaver, one of the first things I did was replace the dead frig with a larger one, so I've seen and rearranged the 'guts' there. I had a fair number of plumbing changes, repairs, and botched repairs to deal with (a couple included getting under the sub floor), pulled and repaired some electrical wiring.

I've also had a Holiday Rambler and Coachmen I did a fair amount of work on over the years, the Beaver is by far the most solid and best built.
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Old 07-19-2021, 06:42 AM   #4
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A little polyurethane adhesive would have gone a long way. A strong bond yet a wee bit flexible.
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Old 07-19-2021, 08:21 AM   #5
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Quote:
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It's not the same as building a house, conventional home building techniques would fail miserably bouncing down the road, and weigh 3 times as much. In your picture the part looks square, the end cuts are square, the wall looks like it leans out at the top but I know it can't be as bad as the picture makes it look.

I see staples which a lot of people consider a poor fastener, but they allow movement which is necessary in an RV. I would like to see them a little better distributed across the width of the uprights. Staples will also penetrate thin "white wood" without splitting it, which anything much thicker than a staple won't do.

I've been 'in' a lot of my 93 Beaver, one of the first things I did was replace the dead frig with a larger one, so I've seen and rearranged the 'guts' there. I had a fair number of plumbing changes, repairs, and botched repairs to deal with (a couple included getting under the sub floor), pulled and repaired some electrical wiring.

I've also had a Holiday Rambler and Coachmen I did a fair amount of work on over the years, the Beaver is by far the most solid and best built.
Staples have a place in construction but in this case they were used to secure the main brace and they failed to hold. Four horizontal braces that hold the cabinet structure to the wall pulled away (2" gap) allowing the entire cabinet to move resulting in the countertop separating from the rear wall. Properly installed screws would have prevented this. This is poor design and has resulted in a number of RVs experiencing this failure.

This is not the only time I have found staples used the wrong way. I had drawer bottom fall out to find they had staple the bottom on. I have always seen drawer bottom slide in a notch and they will never fail built that way.

So if you know there will be vibrations then it must be made better, yes?

This is the very definition of low quality by design, not some mistake by a worker.

Here are pictures of the separations and the bracket I added to fix it.
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Old 07-19-2021, 08:54 AM   #6
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Typical workmanship/engineering economics. Also engineered to save weight anyway possible. Pounds here and there add up to tons and more fuel.
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Old 07-19-2021, 09:06 AM   #7
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Typical workmanship/engineering economics. Also engineered to save weight anyway possible. Pounds here and there add up to tons and more fuel.
We are talking about the weight of staples vs screws. I can't believe that was a consideration.

But it takes more time to pre drill a hole, add glue and drive in screws. That's how you make quality stuff.
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Old 07-19-2021, 09:40 AM   #8
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Imnsho, quality isnt even in the English language these days. Faster quicker, cheaper, push it out, it's someone else's problem!
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Old 07-19-2021, 10:02 AM   #9
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I want to add one more factor into this.

The "low quality by design" is a valid and obvious conclusion, given the context we see, which is the bare framing of the under countertop supports. However, what appears to be weak assembly and poor design is meant to be finally "tied together" with the firm and secure addition of the countertop.

The countertop, if properly attached will hold all those framing parts together. The drawer side framing is only stapled to the rear support for position and assembly. Once the countertop is glued in place, all parts should be secured.

My point is, the design of the framing construction and assembly is based upon a design where the countertop needs to be securely fastened.

So the question becomes, did the countertop pull away because the framing failed, or did the framing fail because the countertop pulled away?

I don't have the answer, just offering this up as an additional observation. Could also be a failure in assembly to fully adhere the countertop to the cabinet framing.
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Old 07-19-2021, 10:04 AM   #10
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We are talking about the weight of staples vs screws. I can't believe that was a consideration.

But it takes more time to pre drill a hole, add glue and drive in screws. That's how you make quality stuff.
You might be surprised how the automotive industry looks at little weight gains like you describe. Anywhere they can save an ounce/gram, eventually all of those ounces add up to a pound/kilogram, and the EPA rules are hot on their tail.

On my travel trailer, I think a 6 year old could have done a better job aligning the latches to hold 3 different components closed. After trying to align them better, I realized we flat out needed a more robust design, and my wife convinced me to try a little VELCRO. Problem appeared to be solved, but as of this morning, State Farm now owns our travel trailer.

We were talking over the weekend about how we will handle our replacement travel trailer as far as making sure the dealer corrects many of the little nickel/dime quality issues we saw, and wife's comment was, even if they do a better job on the latches, she still plans to call on VELCRO to back it up.
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Old 07-19-2021, 03:26 PM   #11
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Was the real problem the cabinet framing or the wall buckling?
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Old 07-19-2021, 04:49 PM   #12
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As for weight I was referring to your angle brackets, not staples vs. screws.
Sorry for the confusion on my part.
Carybosse is correct in his statement about the automotive industry, less weight equal better mileage equal more sales!
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Old 07-19-2021, 04:57 PM   #13
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Comparing the auto industry to the RV industry is apples and oranges. The auto industry has government fuel standards they have to maintain. I believe it's called CAFE. The RV industry is just cheap. They like to put a lot of lipstick on the pig and hope we'll not notice the low quality build.
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Old 07-19-2021, 06:28 PM   #14
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I agree with Inthepines and quality and RV don't belong in same sentence
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