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Old 01-13-2022, 07:27 AM   #1
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Time to rethink our Class A MH???

While waking up in the night I have recently been haunted by an unpleasant reality.

While our practically new HR Invicta is super comfortable to live in for 5 months at a time and is easy to drive after the Cheap Handling fix and Sumo Spring addition to the front, it may be time to retire it after 2 years.

I am increasingly having a very hard time with the level of pollution it spews out. After spending my entire adult life as a conservation ecologist protecting critters and habitat this seems like an oxymoron to now in semi-retirement be contributing to global pollution and climate change.

I may need to consider going back to a molded fiberglass TT as these are very light weight compared to stick and staple TT. The molded fiberglass TT require much less energy to pull the mass. Along with that it may be time to consider one of the new EVs out there that can pull it.

I am not too concerned about range [anxiety?] as we generally limit travel to 200 miles per day in any case. Apparently easy to recharge an EV at any RV park that has 50 AMP service.

On the other hand, if we sell it, someone else will continue polluting with it! So that does not remove it from the stream of large vehicles spewing various pollutants into the fragile atmosphere.

What a conundrum!

So for the foreseeable future like it or not, we will keep spewing out carbon etc. as we continue our escape from Michigan's Seasonal Ice Age and will not return until the Glacier has retreated from our 22į slopped driveway some time in April.

Cheers all,
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Old 01-13-2022, 07:41 AM   #2
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I would love an honest comparison of living full time in a Class A RV vs a House.

Of course when you move an RV it uses fuel but the energy use when parked is minimal compared to a house.

I have 1000 w of solar and 1300 ah lipo battery's so when boon docking I use almost no fuel.

But let's say I stay at a full hook-up site. I am willing to bet I still use far less energy than an S&B house.
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Old 01-13-2022, 07:50 AM   #3
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Perhaps you could bury it.


In all seriousness, we've been told over and over again how we are somehow responsible for climate change. We are, but what we can do as individuals is less than minuscule and has no real impact whatsoever. Recycle, they tell us. Combine our errands into single trips! Take the bus! Get rid of that gas hog! Putting on us as individuals what those who could make a difference lack the courage to do. But none of that is going to change a thing. Even if you as an individual stop polluting altogether somehow, climate change will go right on changing. Nothing you can do is going to make any difference. Vote, yes, and support legislation that can make a difference. Donate and volunteer, yes, combining your efforts with others with the wherewithal to do something. There are other effective ways in which to focus your concern.
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Old 01-13-2022, 07:54 AM   #4
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Why not hike with a tent? For thousands of years our ancestors used them. Modern tents are waterproof and minimally offensive to the planet. Walking is an excellent exercise, carrying your belongings is beneficial too. Hundreds of people hike the Appalachian Trail carrying everything with them for weeks at a time.

Fiberglass is non-recyclable and considered a hazardous waste. It is also a suspected carcinogenic compound. Aluminum is recycled.
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Old 01-13-2022, 08:08 AM   #5
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Just a thought here....a new diesel pusher with scr emission reduction system running on DEF does not "spew" carbon emissions.....mostly just water vapor and oxygen with small amounts of C02. NOx is reduced by 80% over standard old-school diesels.

Now, inherently, a diesel produces about 1/24th the greenhouse gasses as a gas engine, and is also much more efficient in converting fuel to rotational energy than gas engines.

So, the math should be simple....trade your gas coach up to a newer diesel coach with def and you will at least be promoting "greener" motorhoming!
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Old 01-13-2022, 08:21 AM   #6
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Most environmental harm is done producing the vehicle. So each time someone changes for something of less consumption for ethical reason, they may feel better but not sure it helped on the environmental aspect.
Ok our class A rigs use fuel as if thereís no tomorrow, around twice what of a car towing a trailer. But what is our annual milage ? Usually far less than the car when we live in stick and brick.
Staying away from the shopping malls and hardware centers is a good way to minimize our environmental impact. Less consumption equals less raw material/transformation/transport/waste.
I enjoy my traveling, walk and cycle in the parks, having fun with friends. It pinches me each time I fill up but at the end, not event a drop in the ocean.
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Old 01-13-2022, 09:09 AM   #7
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Old 01-13-2022, 09:34 AM   #8
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Personally I am dead set against all this clean energy hoopla. Electric vehicles? More costly than fossil fueled vehicles to build. When the useful life of the super expensive battery comes to the end where is it going to go? There is very little in those batteries which can be recycled. The rest will go into a landfill somewhere and lay there for the eternity. If anyone thinks repairing these vehicles will be cheap they had better rethink it. All new special tooling and equipment and hundreds upon hundreds of hours of specialized training for the Techs. charged with repairing these marvels.
Solar energy. Great idea other than these solar farms are slowly taking over valuable farm land which was used to grow food and crops on. At the end of the solar panel's lifespan (estimated 20 years) there is nothing in these panels which can be recycled. Off to another landfill. Windmills? The same way. After 20 years they will be torn down and like the solar panels there is nothing in these monsters which can be recycled. Dig another hole and start another landfill. More valuable farm land used up. We have several wind power projects going up in my area. Who owns these windmills? A German company!
It will come to the point in the future we will be relying on foreign markets for our food supply like we do for our oil now. Do we really want to be put into that position?
For the time being plug your electric car into a charging system. Unless we expand our power grid systems at a faster rate than we are doing now we will overload the system and we will have continuous blackouts like California is facing right now.
We have an abundance of fossil fuels available right here in our own country and have had pipelines bringing it in until an executive order was signed to stop it. We have made significant gains in controlling emission outputs from these power generation plants. This is where we should be concentrating our emission control efforts. Nuclear power should be revisited at the same time.
There is a lot of money being made by those who are building these new facilities to provide "Green Energy" Has anyone down here in the trenches seen any monetary benefits? Or do they even care?
The wind farms up here don't benefit me in any way. All the power being generated is being sent downstate where the rates are higher yet we have to look at these behemoths when we are out for a drive. Has anyone stood nearby one of these windmills to hear the whoosh, whoosh noise they make when the blades are turning?
Once these windmills are torn down because they are used up there will be a hole in the ground where concrete and steel have been placed to anchor the mast which supports the generator and blades. Each hole contains a minimum of 85 truck loads of concrete to build the base plus all the reinforcing steel. Then there are miles and miles of underground cables to carry the power generated.
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Old 01-13-2022, 09:38 AM   #9
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I am sympathetic to your concerns. Not sure a diesel is a solution. They are maybe 20% more efficient than a gasser, but diesel produces more greenhouse gasses when you burn it. Yes, other pollutants like HCs are lower but not particulates.

Thor just announced an agreement with ZF to produce electric TTs made by their Hymer affiliate. These would have their own battery system and motor on the wheels, so could be pulled with an EV and not affect range significantly. Recharging both at a campground is an issue.

Most RV parks have 50A/220V power outlets but cannot recharge an EV by themselves. It takes a dedicated power post for EV charging. Maybe those will come over time to RV parks and maybe the EV itself will be capable of plugging in to 50/220. Some can already plug into a 110V outlet for slow recharging.

I think that an EV with no trailer EV assist will lose half its range while towing a TT. My Nissan Pathfinder would drop from 25 mpg to 12-13 when towing a 3,500 lb lightweight TT. Half of the normal range wouldn't get you to your campground 200 miles away in most EVs.

There are even smaller TTs like the teardrop types that wouldn't affect milage or range as much. Popups even less. I recall my old Coleman popup would cut gas milage by 1/4-1/3 when towed by a midsized car.

Maybe the best solution is a Class C built on an EV van or box truck. Amazon and others have ordered them for city deliveries, but I don't think the range is what you need, about 150 miles for Amazon's Rivian. More and better batteries should solve that.

I do think RVs will have to change as pressures to cut greenhouse gasses rise over time. Some of the above may be the solution.

David
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Old 01-13-2022, 09:56 AM   #10
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Keep it add some solar. feel good about what you do otherwise. Selling will just add one more to the mix as you already note. I like others believe after traveling the country and coming from Oregon ... west coast..."conservation capital" can tell you..... you are deciding to stop P-- in the ocean so it won't rise.
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Old 01-13-2022, 10:13 AM   #11
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My advice is keep it and enjoy, as the emissions produced in the making of any replacement RV you may buy will likely exceed the emission from all the gasoline you will ever burn driving the current one.
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Old 01-13-2022, 10:15 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pol6
Most environmental harm is done producing the vehicle.
And producing electricity is not free of pollutants by any means but it can be more localized pollution.

I often "marvel" at the thinking process of people who proclaim electricity is cleaner and nuclear fission produces no pollutants. Even the heated water released from the cooling towers negatively impacts the nearby ecology.

Pollution is like squeezing a balloon. Tamp it down in one area and it pops up in another, usually some third-world country that is getting devastated by the mining of materials to produce "clean electricity".

Where do people think the massive amount of electricity needed to run EV vehicles will come from? Yes, many home users can charge at night to spread out the load on the generating stations more evenly. But it won't make that much difference because of 24x7 industrial users.

If electric truly was cheaper, why the heck do all-electric homes cost far more to run than do homes with a mix of electric and natural gas?

All pollution is not in the air. You have to expend power to create less power of a different type since no process is 100% efficient.

When/if someone sets off an EMP device or a nuclear conflict emerges, all of those "clean" nuclear plants will finish off the planet. Why?

Because they need many years of electricity to cool down their fuel even after they're scrammed. Once nuclear plants lose the ability to generate their own power they will begin an uncontained meltdown as happened in Fukushima and Chernobyl. If a nuclear plant is "shut down" for maintenance it still relies on commercial power long-term to keep the fuel cool. Fission-based nuclear power is a lose-lose situation for the planet.

Ray

PS: I had a hybrid and I loved it. But after I retired I drove far less. In the last three months I owned it I drove a whopping 36 miles.

Then Ohio, in its infinite idiocy, decided to slap a $100 annual surcharge on hybrid license plates "because we did not pay our fair share of the gas tax."

Even better, Ohio slapped plug-in vehicles with a $200 annual surcharge on their license plates.

So I dumped it for a polluting 100% gas burner.

Here is Michigan's extra license plate fee. Not as bad as Ohio but you folks pay a lot more for car insurance to make up for the difference and then some. https://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,4670,...5432--,00.html
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Old 01-13-2022, 12:00 PM   #13
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I love how everybody thinks that EVs are the answer to Glowball Warming. The deck is stacked against us, this old ball of mud is in orbit around a star with an astronomical gravitational pull, and like any other body in orbit that orbit is declining. This means that every year earths orbit declines putting us closer to the sun, closer to a giant heat source called a red star, meaning there is nothing we can do to prevent Glowball Warming. It has been pointed out how "dirty" "clean energy" really is, and EVs are particularly dirty. The first thing to consider is where does the electricity come from to charge the lithium battery in that EV? Most of it comes from conventional electrical generating plants, whether coal, oil, or nuclear powered or Hydro-electric. I also have seen one of the remote charging stations powered by a large diesel engine. I think nothing exemplifies the oxymoron of EVs better than a Tesla being charged by the generator powered by a big ol' diesel because there is no readily available power from the "grid". I just talked to a Guy yesterday driving a Volkswagen EV about how long it takes to charge it and he had some interesting things to say; first off he was driving an EV because he owns a VW dealership and feels he needs to because he sells EVs. When it comes to charging it, it takes about 20-30 minutes to charge to 80 percent, 100% will cost you most of an hour. At the time we were at a Loves truck stop and he was on a trip from LA to Scottsdale and he really blew me away when he said they have a shorter range on the freeway and a charge lasts a lot longer city driving. EVs are better inn stop and go driving because of Regenerative Braking, every time you take your foot off the throttle the motor turns into a generator and contributes to charging the battery, combined with the increased amperage demands of doing 60, 65, and here in the western states frequently 75 miles an hour greatly reduces range.

Disposal of the used batteries has been covered but what about producing the batteries? Lithium is mined by pumping water into wells in the ore body and then pumping the lithium containing water out into drying ponds, where it is dried and then scooped up. This process demands huge amounts of water, a commodity in short supply here in the west where a lot of lithium is mined.I'm sure that this is going to leave behind legacy pollution of some sort in the future, much the same as using mercury in gold mining in the 1800s left legacy mercury pollution all across the west.


Glowball Warming is just a part of nature, promoting and demonizing it is how politicians use it to control the people and promote business to profit from and as an excuse to collect more taxes to line their pockets. Stop worrying about Glowball Warming, take a lesson from Chicken Little and enjoy your RV. By design our little houses we drive are more ecologically friendly than sticks and bricks, think about how long your sticks and bricks would take to consume the fuel and water that your rig carries. I use less than 6 gallons of hot water to take a shower in Big Blue, At home I usually empty a 40 gallon water heater. That one home shower just consumed my entire 75 gallons of water and probably 1/4 of my 36 gallon propane capacity which is actually about 25.5 gallons because you can only fill a propane can to 80 percent. By living in your RV for 5 months it may look like you are just consuming, but in fact you are conserving by design.


RV long and prosper!
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Old 01-13-2022, 10:40 PM   #14
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I

Most RV parks have 50A/220V power outlets but cannot recharge an EV by themselves. It takes a dedicated power post for EV charging. Maybe those will come over time to RV parks and maybe the EV itself will be capable of plugging in to 50/220. Some can already plug into a 110V outlet for slow recharging.

David
Any EV can plug into any receptacle on the Rv park pedestal wether it be the 15 amp, 30 amp or 14-50 240 volt receptacle. The EV driver simply uses a small adapter to plug in the EVSE (charge cable) that comes with the car. EVís can also plug into welding plugs, dryer plugs, or pretty much any kind of receptacle as long as itís 120 or 240 volts. Itís just a matter of having the right adapter in your travel kit.
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