Death Wobble

[Tha_Rooster]

Originally Posted by litlgeezer

I am sending this post regarding many posts that I have read concerning the Death Wobble effect. After buying our motorhome, my wife and I purchased a 2013 Equinox 4 cylinder in 2015 for a toad. We too, experienced this misfortune that resulted in a violent force that ripped our Equinox (receiver hitch and all) from our MH. The Equinox ended up in the driveway of a nearby house after traveling across the opposite lane, down a ditch, hitting a culvert and almost turning over. So, I am now very nervous when driving alongside an RV with a toad, realizing these things happen even under the safest condition one can be in.



However, we now have a motorhome without a hitch and seemingly impossible to sell at a reasonable price. Therefore, the road is calling again and I want to purchase another receiver and try again. After the insurance company totaled the Equinox, we purchased a 2012 Jeep Cherokee Overlander Quad Trac V8 (but not with the intention at that time of flat towing it).



Can this vehicle be safely flat towed behind a motorhome? I have seen where someone else posted a video of a similar jeep experiencing this 'Death Wobble' phenomenon.



John

It’s bad about the death wobble, but what’s concerns me is it was ripped from motorhome” receiver and all”. What tow bar and receiver rating do you have?

[Dav L]

litlgeezer, didn't see what motorhome you are using. It's easier to assist when your RV is listed in your signature.

Generally, replacing shocks doesn't correct "sway". You might want to look into sway bar upgrades. If by chance you have a Ford F53 chassis, then look at the CHF forum (wow that's a lot of posts for a simple upgrade...). Shocks "dampen" the sway effect a tad as it delays the reaction to sidewards loads. But if the shocks were bad, they needed to be replaced no matter what.
Also, if the shocks changed the situation with the Toad at all, then there is still something more substantive wrong that the Toad went into the violent wobble. The shocks don't stop the RV from traveling it's full suspension articulation...it just delays the effect. So, if that truly was what prompted the wobble, it might happen again when the RV is in a different scenario (like repetitive whoops in the road).

I think the issue was either loose components (like the hitch mounts were loose), or suspension worn parts on the toad (like loose tie rods, drag link, wheel bearings etc) or suspension angles (either wrong or designed that way) that allowed the toad to oscillate.

Its hard to say because we are trying to diagnose something complicated from afar. Sounds like the Toad was totalled and parted out by now at a boneyard. So we'll never know. I remember as a kid my next door neighbor driving his car into his driveway and the front wheel fell off...and he never noticed how much noise / wobble that must have been doing for years before that happened? Some folks are just more attentive, sensitive and maintenance concerned than others.

I wouldn't worry too much about RV's towing Toads...it always surprises me how many are on the road towing Toads. Most important is to ensure both vehicles are maintained properly and the towing components are correct for the application and in perfect condition. And the Toad you choose is rated for four down.

[ThePowells]

I'm still trying to figure out how a ball hitch and then two pivots on the plate "lift" the front end of a toad. I understand that in a hard barking maneuver that the ball being lower than the pivot points will encourage the front of the toad to attempt to ride up, and being lower will push down of the front of the toad, and best scenario is to have those two points level.
As for the blown rear tire @ 45 MPH being the cause of the damage, I'm having trouble wrapping my head around that one also, especially with all of the reports of rear tires on toads failing and the driver not knowing for an extended time.

[ClassyClassA]

Since I installed my own Blue Ox, I set up the breakaway so that even if every part of the “weak link” failed the Brake Buddy would still kick in. The failsafe cable runs from the safety chain loop of the RV hitch and then back to the bumper of the toad. Maybe it’s overkill but I’m paranoid about that death wobble since I’ve experienced a similar feeling when towing our tag-along with an under sized car.

[litlgeezer]

Originally Posted by Dav L

litlgeezer, didn't see what motorhome you are using. It's easier to assist when your RV is listed in your signature.

Generally, replacing shocks doesn't correct "sway". You might want to look into sway bar upgrades. If by chance you have a Ford F53 chassis, then look at the CHF forum (wow that's a lot of posts for a simple upgrade...). Shocks "dampen" the sway effect a tad as it delays the reaction to sidewards loads. But if the shocks were bad, they needed to be replaced no matter what.
Also, if the shocks changed the situation with the Toad at all, then there is still something more substantive wrong that the Toad went into the violent wobble. The shocks don't stop the RV from traveling it's full suspension articulation...it just delays the effect. So, if that truly was what prompted the wobble, it might happen again when the RV is in a different scenario (like repetitive whoops in the road).

I think the issue was either loose components (like the hitch mounts were loose), or suspension worn parts on the toad (like loose tie rods, drag link, wheel bearings etc) or suspension angles (either wrong or designed that way) that allowed the toad to oscillate.

Its hard to say because we are trying to diagnose something complicated from afar. Sounds like the Toad was totalled and parted out by now at a boneyard. So we'll never know. I remember as a kid my next door neighbor driving his car into his driveway and the front wheel fell off...and he never noticed how much noise / wobble that must have been doing for years before that happened? Some folks are just more attentive, sensitive and maintenance concerned than others.

I wouldn't worry too much about RV's towing Toads...it always surprises me how many are on the road towing Toads. Most important is to ensure both vehicles are maintained properly and the towing components are correct for the application and in perfect condition. And the Toad you choose is rated for four down.

Dav L:

Thank you for responding. I apologize for this belated response. I have a 2004 Damon Intruder 373W. I recently purchased and installed another receiver, should we decide to buy another small towable and travel again.

I suspect that the Equinox that we bought from a local small used car dealer had possibly been in a wreck that caused rear-end misalignment, even though CarFax stated no previous accidents. This is why an out-of-town shop could not get the rear tires into alignment. (I was prepared to follow up on this after we would get home).

Regarding the Brake Stop system, it was installed per manufacturer's instructions. One difference I would make, should I ever install another, is to attach the braking cable onto the coach frame, rather than depending on the receiver itself. If the receiver is lost, as was mine, then everything is lost.

Again, thank you for your kind response. I'll look into why my MH is not described on posts.

[DryCreek]

Originally Posted by ThePowells

I'm still trying to figure out how a ball hitch and then two pivots on the plate "lift" the front end of a toad.

Yep, me too. Still scratching my head over that one. Even if your towbar is angled up from the toad to the MH receiver, you'd almost have to be able to launch like a dragster in order to unload the front suspension of the toad. Also, as you're launching the MH like a 1/4 miles drag racer, the rear should dip as the MH front end rises (assuming it's not a FWD like the GMC was), lessening the difference in height between the two.

Now, if your toad is an early VW Beetle or Corvair, then I could see lifting the weight off of the front suspension occurring as you leave the burnout trough....

[Dark Sky]

I'm curious if anyone has ever suffered a 'death wobble' on a properly maintained, unmodified vehicle that does not have electric steering. It seems most of the incidents are occurring to vehicles with electric steering, lots of them Jeep products. The recent news about a class action suit against Chrysler-Fiat for death wobbles in Jeep Wranglers indicates the problem is happening once components are worn and especially if the suspension is modified, very common for Wranglers. Makes me wonder how the manufacturer is responsible once the vehicle has been modified.

[h20ski]

Originally Posted by Dark Sky

I'm curious if anyone has ever suffered a 'death wobble' on a properly maintained, unmodified vehicle that does not have electric steering. It seems most of the incidents are occurring to vehicles with electric steering, lots of them Jeep products. The recent news about a class action suit against Chrysler-Fiat for death wobbles in Jeep Wranglers indicates the problem is happening once components are worn and especially if the suspension is modified, very common for Wranglers. Makes me wonder how the manufacturer is responsible once the vehicle has been modified.

Check out this article

https://www.foxnews.com/auto/jeep-wr...ath-wobble-fix

[Dark Sky]

Interesting. I thought the problems with the new JL were due to electric steering (they call it 'electro-hydraulic'). The linked article describes the company's fix as a replacement steering damper.
Thanks for the info! Just another reason I won't be buying a new Wrangler.

[lonfu]

Hearing aids and reading glasses.... electric or hydraulic, it makes no difference, you need a steering system shock the prevents the oscillation of the front wheels from side to side when the weight of the toad is lifted up by road conditions such as exiting a drive way or speed bumps or the worst "frost heaves" on the Alcan.

Toad man's only put on the size that is needed when driving, not for towing... you will have to increase the size of your steer damper when you tow. Your tow bar must level when parked on a flat surface, even better if it is a little downward because the air ride systems in DP's tend raise slightly when driving down the road.

I've seen larger steer dampers replacing original equip and more often a 2nd unit is added due to space limitations on small vehicles. Steer dampers should be the size of shock, not a side door gas spring. they are thick, not thin... the originals are not designed for towing...

Had a 1971 volkswagen super beetle with macpherson struts in the front. I bought this vehicle brand new. It had a tiny little steering damper, after the first 50k miles or so the front end would "death wobble" when driving!!! I replaced the damper to no avail. Old mechanic that I worked for said he would solve the problem for $10.... Next day I gave him my $10. and he took a $1.25 bag of concrete from his trunk and put it in mine. Trunk on a beetle is in the front. Never did it again....

Think about.... where in the toad is the weight carried? As the load increases the rear suspension carries most of the increase so that is where most of the "spring" is at. The rears suspension must be able to function as 1500 lbs is added to it. Lift up the front end even a little bit and the front wheels are no longer driven straight forward with weight on them while the back end is bouncing down the road. The front steer is flexible it is designed to move side to side, with no weight it does exactly that. Big surprise!!!

So, you need a steering oscillation damper due to incorrect vehicle in motion axle weight distribution.

There are other things you can try, increasing the toe in, increasing the camber and caster, but these things will cause strange tire wear when not towing.

You must design your hitch and bar to keep the weight on the front of your toad at all times. Worn front tires on either the outside or inside indicate that your hitch geometry is incorrect. (assuming a recent align) Ignore this and your toad will soon be passing you....

[jkorn]

We have a 2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited and have pulled it over 15k miles with absolutely no issues. I love it. Great vehicle once we are parked and the little button that connects then disconnects the drive train is Fantastic. Plenty of power for the 6 cylinder engine and the suspension is just right, not to frim and not too soft. Takes less than 5 minutes to attach and disconnect it from the Coach. Golf clubs fit in the back so don't have to find room for them in the basement.

It's perfect!!!

[lonfu]

Friend from my moho club tows a smart car behind his 35 footer.... he uses a bungy cord on his steering wheel, says it works just fine...Now that was an easy fix...

[RayChez1]

I have towed various tow vehicles and have never gotten any kind of wobble. First was a 2002 Ford Ranger, then 2013 Honda Pilot, next 2014 Honda CRV, then 2017 GMC Terrain, 2017 Buick Envision and 2018 Buick Envision. Never had a wobble on any of these vehicles.

I am thinking that these wobbles being reported are probably caused by the improper way the hitch attachments between the coach and the tow vehicle. Might be that the height on the coach is too high vs the tow vehicle being too low and when their is a sudden jerk between the two, it is lifting the front tires right off the ground causing the wobble.

[EA37TS]

Originally Posted by RayChez1

I have towed various tow vehicles and have never gotten any kind of wobble. First was a 2002 Ford Ranger, then 2013 Honda Pilot, next 2014 Honda CRV, then 2017 GMC Terrain, 2017 Buick Envision and 2018 Buick Envision. Never had a wobble on any of these vehicles.

I am thinking that these wobbles being reported are probably caused by the improper way the hitch attachments between the coach and the tow vehicle. Might be that the height on the coach is too high vs the tow vehicle being too low and when their is a sudden jerk between the two, it is lifting the front tires right off the ground causing the wobble.

There is an actual condition called the death wobble on Jeep Wranglers and some Cherokees which is related to the electronic power steering. For the vehicles that have the problem there is a factory wiring harness that can be installed (at a cost) that will activate the electronic power steering while the vehicle is being towed to eliminate the wobble. It's not on all Jeeps and newer ones have had the issue addressed by Jeep.