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Old 09-09-2021, 07:39 PM   #43
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"Who says I was using a tow dolly without a supplemental braking system??"

You did.

"Every time I had to come to a stop, it would require plenty of space and a lot of pressure on my brakes, as a result of all the work being done by the motorhome. Am I wrong in assuming that with flat towing, there should be less wear and tear on my motorhome brakes than with dolly towing as a result of having an auxiliary braking system?"
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Old 09-09-2021, 07:46 PM   #44
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My guess is in your lifetime we wonít come close to wearing out the brakes on your coach.
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Old 09-09-2021, 07:47 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mebop View Post
Iíve always felt that primary purpose of the auxiliary brake on the tow car was for the brake away application if the car broke loose from the motorhome. Iíve never felt that the application of the brakes on a tow car was going to hold back a 40,000 pound motorhome, with proper use of the engine braking system on the Allison transmission with diesel engine the brakes on the bus and the car should last a very long time,
Having a aux. braking system like a brake buddy is just like towing a trailer with surge braking system, that including using a break - away switch that will activate you aux. braking system if it breaks away. I realize you larger RV's have excess braking assistance at a touch (foot or hand). But most aux. braking systems can be fine tuned to your driving habits and style.
I flat tow a 2K9 Jeep GCL with a Converted 25' Class C V10 using a Brake Buddy with remote and break away system.
Happy Trails
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Old 09-09-2021, 07:56 PM   #46
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Tow dolly vs. dinghy-towing (flat-towing):


The tow dolly can carry any vehicle that is front wheel drive and is within the weight limits of what the dolly can carry. The dolly should have a built-in electric brakes that require the purchase of a controller that is permanently installed in the MH (and the controller is not that expensive, around $200 or less). You don't need to buy and install a mounting plate or braking system in the vehicle you're towing. All of this costs much less than dinghy-towing. The wear on brake systems is on the MH and the dolly. The disadvantages are that it can be downright tricky getting the vehicle on the dolly and strapped strapped down, especially the very first time. You also have the additional towing weight of the dolly, which is around 250 pounds.



As for dinghy towing, connecting a vehicle to the trailer hitch and so forth is somewhat easier than driving the car onto a dolly, etc. But you will need a braking system in the car that usually requires a reliable 12V power source. The steering wheel needs to be unlocked while the ignition is off. There are fewer and fewer new vehicles approved for flat towing and many of those have speed and other limitations that you might find to be inconvenient. The car's braking system alone can cost as much as a tow dolly. Then add in the cost of buying and installing the permanent changes to your car with the base plates, etc. Don't forget the wiring of your brake and turn signal lights. While you can use those cheap magnetic lights from Harbor Freight, they'll scratch up your car's finish, you need to wire them to the MH and they can and do fall off (make sure you have a back-up set). The wear on your braking systems are on the MH and the car when dingy-towing. Unless you can tie into the MH's electrical system or use a supplemental battery for the car's brake system while towing, you can quickly run down the car's battery and the brake system will stop working.



We have dinghy-towed a Saturn and a Corolla-S, both with manual transmissions. We now dolly-tow a Chevy Bolt EV, which can't be towed flat. The weight limit on our Master Tow dolly is 4500 pounds, which equals the curb weight of the Chevy Bolt (heavy batteries, small vehicle). By the way, Teslas cannot be flat-towed, only on a flat bed.


Advice for those obtaining a tow dolly: Practice in a parking lot before you really need to leave. If you don't have one, buy a magnetic-mount CB antenna, the taller the better. Also, obtain a yoga mat (they're pretty cheap at 5 and Below). The part of the car's fascia that hangs down in front is called the "ground clearance" for good reason. You don't want your car's ground clearance to hit the dolly's ramp. It is easier if the car and the dolly are either both on concrete or both on grass/dirt/gravel before driving up the ramp. If the dolly is on concrete and the car is lower on grass, expect problems. If the ground clearance hits the ramp, it will get ripped off. Getting it back on is a pain and you will probably need to jack up the vehicle. If the tires are wet, they can slip when getting onto the ramp causing the car to swerve, in which case you'll have to back up and try again. Driving over the end of the ramp is an outright (deleted expletive) disaster! It is my greatest fear and you don't have to be stupid to do it (yes, I once did it in a VW Passat). [If it happens, you will have to jack up the car's front and place boards under the front tires while clamping the rear end of the boards onto the dolly. Another method is to unhook the dolly from the hitch ball. That will lower the front of the dolly's hitch until the car's wheels make contact with the ground. There may be other methods, like using another vehicle to pull the car back onto the ramps.] In general, make sure you have a spotter when driving off and onto the dolly. It will take you several tries (temper, temper...). After you get the car fully onto the dolly, set its brakes. Take the magnetic mount antenna and place it onto the dolly so that it is deflected a little by the front of the car. Get some colored spray paint and spray around the magnetic base (sorry, can't use a Sharpie, which will wear off). After it dries, you can remove the antenna. If the antenna isn't high enough to be seen when sitting in the driver's seat (which is likely to be the case), place some plastic irrigation tubing on its end, held in place by one of those large document paper clips from your office supply store. That should make it visible. The next time you need to get the car on the dolly, you will place the antenna onto the dolly first. You make sure to stop when you hit it or knock the antenna over, thereby avoiding driving over the end of the ramp. Make sure you take it along on your trip. You need a lock under the dolly that keeps the ramps from lowering. It also keeps your dolly from being stolen. I can't easily explain how to wrap the webbing straps correctly around its ring, but it's important to do it properly, they're sided and the instructions should be supplied. You should use a box for the straps, antenna, etc. Place a screw driver (no wider than 1/4") and vice grips in that box. Place the yoga mat on the ground in front of the ratchet. Locate the ratchet in front of the tire and tighten it up, starting with some slack. Tie off any access. After you drive a mile, they will loosen. Stop somewhere to tighten them and then check them every time you need to stop.



When you arrive at your destination, getting the straps off can be another pain. Wearing gloves makes sense as it will be dirty from being towed behind a MH. Here are some tips and tricks: You will need to sit on the ground in front of the ratchets. Put the yoga mat down there. While sitting on the mat, look through the ratchet and you will find a small, round hole, about 5/16", through the back of the ratchet. If you place the screw driver through the hole it can contact the tire (don't push it through your tire!). By pressing down (not in) on the screw driver's handle like a lever, you will temporarily release the lock on the ratchet, which will allow you to loosen the strap a bit. Keep doing that until you are able to loosen the straps enough to move the ratchet over to a position where it can be in the fully opened position, which unlocks the ratchet. Keeping it unlocked, you should then be able to pull the rest of the webbing from the reel. If you have the lock on the ratchet unlocked with the screw driver (or if the ratchet handle is fully opened and unlocked) and the strap reel will not rotate, place the vice grip on the end of the reel's axle and rotate it while making sure it is still unlocked. Remove the lock from under the car that locks the ramps up. As you roll the car off, the ramps will drop down. Again, make sure that the surface in front of the ramps is level with the surface under the ramps, that is, make sure that the ramps won't drop onto a concrete pad while the wheels drop lower onto gravel. Otherwise, the car's ground clearance can hit the ramps.
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Old 09-09-2021, 08:34 PM   #47
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Dave,
I have a 2012 32 ft Tiffin with the Ford V-10 and I flat tow a jeep wrangler. I have a brake buddy aux braking system in the jeep but I also drive with the MH transmission in the tow/haul mode. The transmission ďbrakingĒ really makes a difference and saves on wear and tear. Didnít see any mention of this in you thread so give it a goÖcomfort level goes way up in my opinion. Good luck!
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Old 09-09-2021, 09:01 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlduck View Post
TandW,
Who says I was using a tow dolly without a supplemental braking system?? I was using a Demco Kar Kaddy with surge brakes that worked fine. I was merely asking for feedback from others as to the issue of less wear and tear on the motorhome's brakes associated with flat towing versus dolly towing. I am continually amazed by people who jump to wrong conclusions just to make wrong statements before investigating the facts first! I can assure you that as a responsible motorhome owner I take every precaution to ensure I am operating at a high level of safety before I put my coach and vehicle on the road.
Dave

I've towed SUV's with a surge brake tow dolly that had brakes that actually did work fine and there was little to no extra brake pedal effort required to stop my 2001 Winnebago Adventurer 35U on the Ford F53 V10 powered chassis when towing the dolly with an SUV on it even in mountainous areas. Yes indeed you should allow more following space when towing however you should very rarely find yourself absolutely having to use it up in normal driving.

I would be inclined to believe that since your experience with the dolly was "every time I had to come to a stop, it would require plenty of space and a lot of pressure on my brakes", the surge brakes on your dolly needed adjustment or repair to actually get them working correctly. If you sell that dolly the buyer should be advised that the brakes are not working correctly and need servicing.

Be mindful that when flat towed or even during normal driving 80% to 90% of the stopping is done by the front brakes so there should be little discernible difference in brake performance between a properly set up tow dolly braking system and a properly set up flat tow braking system. With a tow dolly having surge brakes there should be much less stress on your hitch since there should only be the additional linear force, required to activate the surge brake cylinder, on the hitch when stopping which should be less than around a few hundred lbs when the system is working correctly and not thousands of lbs.

The surge brake system should be flushed and refilled with fresh brake fluid every few years and the slides, pivots, etc on the master cylinder and at the wheels lubricated with a high quality brake grease at least annually and more often if the dolly is exposed to salted or sanded roads. Many tend to neglect brake maintenance on a tow dolly because of its infrequent use however that lack of frequent use is a big reason why its brakes should be serviced more often to ensure correct operation. Note that inspection and lubrication of brake components at the wheel is even more critical when the dolly has Disk Brakes since the slides, guides and mounts are more exposed to the elements than those shielded by a brake drum.


I will say that I find the Demco Owners Manual for their current and previous line of dollies woefully lacking as far as surge brake system maintenance is concerned. Hydraulically operated brake systems require the same types of maintenance be they on a motor vehicle or a trailer.
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Old 09-09-2021, 09:50 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeanluc001 View Post
To me the only reason to use a dolly is if your tow vehicle can't be flat towed. otherwise if it can be then the additional weight of the dolly not being there is less weight to get stopped. less wear and tear on your brakes. i tow a fiat 500 which is pretty light and use a used rv2 brake system off of craigs list. in just normal driving it doesn't engage at all but in sudden braking incidents it kicks in and works well. talked to a guy in wyoming that was pulling the same car as me and he never used a brake system and didn't feel the need for it.
For 30+ years I never used a supplemental brake system, and never felt the need to have one.
I only use one now, brake buddy, because of regulations and insurance.
Most worry about the towed coming disconnected from the motorhome, which is virtually impossible with modern tow systems.
Personally Iím not sure which would be worse a run away car or one that stops in the middle of the road with no brake lights. JMHO
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Old 09-09-2021, 10:24 PM   #50
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Brake buddy

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlduck View Post
I have just recently set up my vehicle and motorhome for flat towing and auxiliary braking, after spending 6 years using a tow dolly. I have never flat towed before, but I know from past experience using a tow dolly, every time I had to come to a stop, it would require plenty of space and a lot of pressure on my brakes, as a result of all the work being done by the motorhome. Am I wrong in assuming that with flat towing, there should be less wear and tear on my motorhome brakes than with dolly towing as a result of having an auxiliary braking system? I am just looking for input from those who have a lot more experience with flat towing than I have.
Thanks,
Dave
I have flat towed a 5000# 2004 Lincoln Aviator behind multiple Motorhomes for 12 years. I use a Remco driveshaft disconnect and a Brake Buddy. I have connected the Motorhome charging to the car battery because the brake buddy requires a fully charged battery to function. Under hard braking the Brake Buddy works great.
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Old 09-09-2021, 10:37 PM   #51
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Flat Towing

Iíve been flat towing for about 32k over a period of about 5 years.
The dolly concept to me is just hilariously outdated and only useful if your toad is not towable 4 down.
Flat towing is less hassle coupling and decoupling and I donít have to find parking for a useless trailer that serves only one purpose.
Iíd sit down a cry if I had to use a dolly, itís that simple!
The big discussion was about braking.
I have a Breakmaster air brake that clicks into place in my Ford Escape for toading. Yes I had an airline fitted but it was inexpensive and I could have done it myself.
When I get to my destination I put the hand brake on in the toad and then remove the Falcon tow bar and cables. Sometimes removing the tow bar pins is a little tricky but usually just working the steering slight left or right loosens the pins. I then remove the toad air brake and thatís the process. Done in about 5 minutes.
Wouldnít change my system for anything else and I feel really safe. I also know that it makes braking more efficient and less harsh on my rig.
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Old 09-09-2021, 10:38 PM   #52
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Done Both

We switched from surge brake dolly towing to supplementary brake flat towing not because of braking issues, but after riding with a buddy who is flat towing. I like the fact that it was much less hassle and the car seems to follow better on tight corners. Opinions are a dime a dozen, that's mine.
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Old 09-10-2021, 12:48 AM   #53
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140.6 guy,
My leased premium gas 2014 smart was towable 4 down., checklist in owners manual.
I used a Dolly to avoid cutting the grille for tow bar mounts.
Check my previous posts for more info and pictures.
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Old 09-10-2021, 05:31 AM   #54
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Blue Ox Patriot

Iíve had the Blue Ox, 25K miles, 5 years, and each years inspection in PA didnít show any significant wear on brakes. Cost is fairly even between dolly or supplemental system, though the Toad has permanent fixtures. I tow Suby Forester with man. trans. w/ V10 33ft. Class A. I set brake system low to only activate at highway speeds and harder braking. I also always drive in Tow/Haul mode even without Toad to give trans less stress.
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Old 09-10-2021, 06:17 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlduck View Post
I have just recently set up my vehicle and motorhome for flat towing and auxiliary braking, after spending 6 years using a tow dolly. I have never flat towed before, but I know from past experience using a tow dolly, every time I had to come to a stop, it would require plenty of space and a lot of pressure on my brakes, as a result of all the work being done by the motorhome. Am I wrong in assuming that with flat towing, there should be less wear and tear on my motorhome brakes than with dolly towing as a result of having an auxiliary braking system? I am just looking for input from those who have a lot more experience with flat towing than I have.
Thanks,
Dave
I have been flat towing a Chevrolet Spark behind my Thor Axis 24.1. I can tow up to 8000 lbs and Sparky is 2200 lbs. I use an RV3 auxiliary brake that you can feel kick in when needed. As far as towing, I canít tell there is anything back there. My mpg changed by 1 mpg.
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Old 09-10-2021, 06:32 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysigel View Post
Tow dolly vs. dinghy-towing (flat-towing):


The tow dolly can carry any vehicle that is front wheel drive and is within the weight limits of what the dolly can carry. The dolly should have a built-in electric brakes that require the purchase of a controller that is permanently installed in the MH (and the controller is not that expensive, around $200 or less). You don't need to buy and install a mounting plate or braking system in the vehicle you're towing. All of this costs much less than dinghy-towing. The wear on brake systems is on the MH and the dolly. The disadvantages are that it can be downright tricky getting the vehicle on the dolly and strapped strapped down, especially the very first time. You also have the additional towing weight of the dolly, which is around 250 pounds.



As for dinghy towing, connecting a vehicle to the trailer hitch and so forth is somewhat easier than driving the car onto a dolly, etc. But you will need a braking system in the car that usually requires a reliable 12V power source. The steering wheel needs to be unlocked while the ignition is off. There are fewer and fewer new vehicles approved for flat towing and many of those have speed and other limitations that you might find to be inconvenient. The car's braking system alone can cost as much as a tow dolly. Then add in the cost of buying and installing the permanent changes to your car with the base plates, etc. Don't forget the wiring of your brake and turn signal lights. While you can use those cheap magnetic lights from Harbor Freight, they'll scratch up your car's finish, you need to wire them to the MH and they can and do fall off (make sure you have a back-up set). The wear on your braking systems are on the MH and the car when dingy-towing. Unless you can tie into the MH's electrical system or use a supplemental battery for the car's brake system while towing, you can quickly run down the car's battery and the brake system will stop working.



We have dinghy-towed a Saturn and a Corolla-S, both with manual transmissions. We now dolly-tow a Chevy Bolt EV, which can't be towed flat. The weight limit on our Master Tow dolly is 4500 pounds, which equals the curb weight of the Chevy Bolt (heavy batteries, small vehicle). By the way, Teslas cannot be flat-towed, only on a flat bed.


Advice for those obtaining a tow dolly: Practice in a parking lot before you really need to leave. If you don't have one, buy a magnetic-mount CB antenna, the taller the better. Also, obtain a yoga mat (they're pretty cheap at 5 and Below). The part of the car's fascia that hangs down in front is called the "ground clearance" for good reason. You don't want your car's ground clearance to hit the dolly's ramp. It is easier if the car and the dolly are either both on concrete or both on grass/dirt/gravel before driving up the ramp. If the dolly is on concrete and the car is lower on grass, expect problems. If the ground clearance hits the ramp, it will get ripped off. Getting it back on is a pain and you will probably need to jack up the vehicle. If the tires are wet, they can slip when getting onto the ramp causing the car to swerve, in which case you'll have to back up and try again. Driving over the end of the ramp is an outright (deleted expletive) disaster! It is my greatest fear and you don't have to be stupid to do it (yes, I once did it in a VW Passat). [If it happens, you will have to jack up the car's front and place boards under the front tires while clamping the rear end of the boards onto the dolly. Another method is to unhook the dolly from the hitch ball. That will lower the front of the dolly's hitch until the car's wheels make contact with the ground. There may be other methods, like using another vehicle to pull the car back onto the ramps.] In general, make sure you have a spotter when driving off and onto the dolly. It will take you several tries (temper, temper...). After you get the car fully onto the dolly, set its brakes. Take the magnetic mount antenna and place it onto the dolly so that it is deflected a little by the front of the car. Get some colored spray paint and spray around the magnetic base (sorry, can't use a Sharpie, which will wear off). After it dries, you can remove the antenna. If the antenna isn't high enough to be seen when sitting in the driver's seat (which is likely to be the case), place some plastic irrigation tubing on its end, held in place by one of those large document paper clips from your office supply store. That should make it visible. The next time you need to get the car on the dolly, you will place the antenna onto the dolly first. You make sure to stop when you hit it or knock the antenna over, thereby avoiding driving over the end of the ramp. Make sure you take it along on your trip. You need a lock under the dolly that keeps the ramps from lowering. It also keeps your dolly from being stolen. I can't easily explain how to wrap the webbing straps correctly around its ring, but it's important to do it properly, they're sided and the instructions should be supplied. You should use a box for the straps, antenna, etc. Place a screw driver (no wider than 1/4") and vice grips in that box. Place the yoga mat on the ground in front of the ratchet. Locate the ratchet in front of the tire and tighten it up, starting with some slack. Tie off any access. After you drive a mile, they will loosen. Stop somewhere to tighten them and then check them every time you need to stop.



When you arrive at your destination, getting the straps off can be another pain. Wearing gloves makes sense as it will be dirty from being towed behind a MH. Here are some tips and tricks: You will need to sit on the ground in front of the ratchets. Put the yoga mat down there. While sitting on the mat, look through the ratchet and you will find a small, round hole, about 5/16", through the back of the ratchet. If you place the screw driver through the hole it can contact the tire (don't push it through your tire!). By pressing down (not in) on the screw driver's handle like a lever, you will temporarily release the lock on the ratchet, which will allow you to loosen the strap a bit. Keep doing that until you are able to loosen the straps enough to move the ratchet over to a position where it can be in the fully opened position, which unlocks the ratchet. Keeping it unlocked, you should then be able to pull the rest of the webbing from the reel. If you have the lock on the ratchet unlocked with the screw driver (or if the ratchet handle is fully opened and unlocked) and the strap reel will not rotate, place the vice grip on the end of the reel's axle and rotate it while making sure it is still unlocked. Remove the lock from under the car that locks the ramps up. As you roll the car off, the ramps will drop down. Again, make sure that the surface in front of the ramps is level with the surface under the ramps, that is, make sure that the ramps won't drop onto a concrete pad while the wheels drop lower onto gravel. Otherwise, the car's ground clearance can hit the ramps.


Just reading this convinced me to keep flat towing.
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