Towing: A legal question

[Daveinet]

Originally Posted by TXiceman

And have you ever seen a motorhome that can detect the difference between a towed car that weighs 3500# and a utility trailer load of rocks that weights 3500#?

Ken

Actually it doesn't matter. What does matter is total braking capacity for the complete system. The laws are written around brake fade. It comes down to if your coach can stop within a specific distance. This is the way they have written the law around brake fade. If the brakes fade, you will not stop within the specified distance. SO if your coach is rated to stop the GVW of your coach, + 2000#, then if you are 3000# under weight, you can stop a 5000# toad within the specified distance. That is all that matters. That is why a tow truck does not have brakes on the toad vehicle. Because its brake rating is capable of stopping the total weight without fade.



It should be noted, most tow dollies do not have brakes. Some do, but most don't.

[n2zon]

Originally Posted by Daveinet

Actually it doesn't matter. What does matter is total braking capacity for the complete system. The laws are written around brake fade. It comes down to if your coach can stop within a specific distance. This is the way they have written the law around brake fade. If the brakes fade, you will not stop within the specified distance. SO if your coach is rated to stop the GVW of your coach, + 2000#, then if you are 3000# under weight, you can stop a 5000# toad within the specified distance. That is all that matters. That is why a tow truck does not have brakes on the toad vehicle. Because its brake rating is capable of stopping the total weight without fade.

It should be noted, most tow dollies do not have brakes. Some do, but most don't.

This could be a case of the laws of man vs. the laws of physics. You might be right about what the laws were written to address. However, if you add unbraked axles in tow, the minimum stopping distance of the combination will increase.

[Daveinet]

Originally Posted by n2zon

This could be a case of the laws of man vs. the laws of physics. You might be right about what the laws were written to address. However, if you add unbraked axles in tow, the minimum stopping distance of the combination will increase.

Yes, Of course! But how much braking is enough braking?


My point is, you could always do more to get your vehicle to stop in a shorter distance. Why would you not mount a jet engine on you coach running in reverse? That would shorten your stopping distance. What has society deemed an adequate stopping distance? When it comes to safety, it does not matter how it is achieved. The only thing that matters is the outcome.

[dbircky]

Originally Posted by Daveinet

Yes, Of course! But how much braking is enough braking?


My point is, you could always do more to get your vehicle to stop in a shorter distance. Why would you not mount a jet engine on you coach running in reverse? That would shorten your stopping distance. What has society deemed an adequate stopping distance? When it comes to safety, it does not matter how it is achieved. The only thing that matters is the outcome.

This is what Ohio has determined an adequate stopping distance:

(9) Every trackless trolley, motor vehicle, or combination of motor-drawn vehicles shall be capable at all times and under all conditions of loading of being stopped on a dry, smooth, level road free from loose material, upon application of the service or foot brake, within the following specified distances, or shall be capable of being decelerated at a sustained rate corresponding to these distances:

(a) Trackless trolleys, vehicles, or combinations of vehicles having brakes on all wheels shall come to a stop in thirty feet or less from a speed of twenty miles per hour.

(b) Vehicles or combinations of vehicles not having brakes on all wheels shall come to a stop in forty feet or less from a speed of twenty miles per hour.

[CWSWine]

I did set down with an accident attorney when I had my 1 ton truck and 5th wheel. Putting an hour worth of advice in few short sentences. First, manufacture specs are gospel in a civil court since manufactures state that isn’t safe to exceed any of the manufacture ratings. Civil cases doesn’t take unanimous vote just a majority vote unlike a criminal court. That majority of cases are settled out of court and only a fool would put their fate in the hands of jury it there is proof of being over weight. The attorney said there is lot baby boomers with assets that are on the road being over weight or without proper licenses and ripe for law suit. He mentioned that there a 3/4 ton pulling a 5er is a red flag and are likely to be over weight. I also added a 2 million dollar umbrella policy after my meeting.

I suggest anyone that thinks they are safe running over manufacture specs to sit down with Accident Attorney and have him explain the legal dangers of doing so.

[CWSWine]

I also learned that the minimum coverage in my state is below. Most of that wouldn't cover much and you can/will be held liable for what the insurance doesn't cover.

==========================================
Liability insurance covers only the other car and/or that car’s driver and passengers when you are found at fault for the accident. Your liability insurance minimums for Kansas are:

$25,000 bodily injury liability per person
$50,000 bodily injury liability per accident
$25,000 property damage liability per accident
Personal Injury Protection is sometimes called No Fault insurance and it covers your medical expenses and other related costs. In Kansas your minimum PIP must include:

-$4,500 per person for medical expenses

-$900 per month for one year for disability/loss of income

-$25 per day for in-home services

-$2,000 for funeral, burial or cremation expenses

-$4,500 for rehabilitation expenses

- Survivor Benefits: Disability/loss of income up to $900 per month for one year In-home services up to $25 per day for one year

Uninsured or Underinsured motorist coverage protects you if you are in an accident with someone who isn’t carrying the required amount or insufficient insurance. Your uninsured or underinsured motorist policy in Kansas includes:

$25,000 bodily injury liability per person
$50,000 bodily injury liability per accident

[Daveinet]

Originally Posted by CWSWine

First, manufacture specs are gospel in a civil court since manufactures state that isn’t safe to exceed any of the manufacture ratings. Civil cases doesn’t take unanimous vote just a majority vote unlike a criminal court.

Where does a manufacturer state "it isn't safe"? A good attorney would not allow anyone to make that statement in court as without foundation, it would be conjecture. They would need to produce the engineering documents that show the weight limit was defined by the braking capability. As I pointed out in my first post, my first coach towing limit was the differential rating, not braking or handling. My current coach has a rear axle that is rated 2000 lbs higher than its load rating. The reason is the springs were chosen for their ride quality, which reduced the rating. So the axle spring is the limiting load factor, not the brakes or the axle strength. That same axle is used in the W24 chassis, but uses different springs. (I've looked at the tag on the axle itself)

[CWSWine]

Originally Posted by Daveinet

Where does a manufacturer state "it isn't safe"? A good attorney would not allow anyone to make that statement in court as without foundation, it would be conjecture. They would need to produce the engineering documents that show the weight limit was defined by the braking capability. As I pointed out in my first post, my first coach towing limit was the differential rating, not braking or handling. My current coach has a rear axle that is rated 2000 lbs higher than its load rating. The reason is the springs were chosen for their ride quality, which reduced the rating. So the axle spring is the limiting load factor, not the brakes or the axle strength. That same axle is used in the W24 chassis, but uses different springs. (I've looked at the tag on the axle itself)

Here is just one example

You may not give much thought about those figures while making short trips or carrying a couple of small items, but when it comes time to load your GMC with lots of passengers or cargo, it’s important to keep your GMC’s GVWR in mind. Failure to do so may result in you exceeding the GVWR and overloading your vehicle.

Overloading your truck or SUV can carry severe consequences, including:

Broken springs and suspension components due to excess weight
Brakes unable to stop the truck or SUV in a timely manner
Transmission and other driveline components may overheat and sustain serious damage
Unusual suspension behavior, making the vehicle hard to control
Tire temperatures rising to elevated levels, potentially leading to a blowout"

Link to the rest of the story;
https://www.gmc.com/gmc-life/how-to/...-weight-rating

Class 8 Over the road 18 wheelers state in the user manual says exceeding the GVWR as:

"Do not exceed the specified load rat-
ing. Overloading can result in loss of
vehicle control, either by causing com-
ponent failures or by affecting vehicle
handling. Exceeding load ratings can
also shorten the service life of the ve-
hicle. Failure to comply may result in
death or personal injury."

[jklingel]

Thanks for real data to support what I would call a common sense of safety.

[BruceDeville]

Originally Posted by CWSWine

Here is just one example

You may not give much thought about those figures while making short trips or carrying a couple of small items, but when it comes time to load your GMC with lots "[/I]

This is a weighted opinion:

During my flying years not only is your take off weight important, but where is your center of gravity. You must calaulate this before EACH flight. It actually is simple, empty weight (curb weight in motor vehicles) add to that all the fuel, oil, people and junk you loaded if that number exceeds the allowable gross weight - throw something out.

Pilots have lost their means of income (loss of pilots certificate) for being 10 pounds over gross. The FAA is serious about weight.

As RVers we are not under that level of scrutiny, but weight does matter. I don’t how the design engineers came up with the weight ratings of the products they design. I just want to know the number. That's the number I do not exceed. I do find that these numbers are "rounded numbers" not the odd numbers you would obtain from actual mathematical calaulations and destructive testing.

If the the rating is 18,000 lbs and your weight is 18,001 lbs you are exposed. No GRAY areas, its black or white.

I always like to express my OPINION and how I feel about a subject. This is such an opinion.

[Daveinet]

Originally Posted by CWSWine

Here is just one example..."

Please help me out here. Can you point to the location in the article where it references brakes on the trailer or towed vehicle. I did a couple of word searches, but could not find it anywhere. Can you help me find where this is discussed in this article?

[CWSWine]

Originally Posted by Daveinet

Please help me out here. Can you point to the location in the article where it references brakes on the trailer or towed vehicle. I did a couple of word searches, but could not find it anywhere. Can you help me find where this is discussed in this article?

Originally Posted by jklingel

If you tow knowing that you are exceeding the manufacturer's allowable limit for an non-braked trailer, are you legally liable if you are in an accident and found at fault because of said "negligence"? Also, the same question for exceeding the OCCC of the coach, no toad involved. Anyone know, or is it a "it depends" thing? Thanks. j

It doesn't address toad braking but does address the question the OP had about exceeding the OCCC of his RV.

[FlNewmarBob]

See link for various sources of towing information. ReadyBrake has a nice map that show by towed vehicle weight.

https://actiondonation.org/state-by-...nd-towing-law/

As to all the rest. GVWR, GCWR, FAWR, RAWR, OCCC, CCC are all non-negotiable by federal law (NHTSA). NHTSA provides regulations to the chassis/coach/trailer/RV builder as to performance requirements, safety systems and designs.

The "vehicle" builders/title issuers apply these regulations to their designs and places the limitations on the vehicle via NHTSA compliant labels. Two issues are in play here. First is conformance to regulations and second is the actual "safe/warrantable build". Every vehicle has components that determine "safe limits". Some of these limits vary by loading. Take hitch receivers. It may be rated by the receiver manufacturer for up to XXXX pounds, but the vehicle it's mounted to may not be able to support that weight. I.E. a Leisure Travel Van Wonder RTB has a 5000 LB hitch but the coach is only capable of handling 3000 LB due to the construction of the rear frame the hitch is mounted to. There are numerous and varied examples like this but suffice to say the numbers are not "arbitrary".

The OP was asking about brakes on a towed vehicle. State laws, NHTSA and finally, common sense (with a conscience) rule.....and we live in very litigious times. Personally, I would not tow much of anything without some sort of brakes. Your tow vehicle may be able to stop, but in the right conditions that "towed" vehicle (car, trailer, etc) will come around, drag the rear of the towing vehicle with it and what you have is a "really bad day".....possibly someone's "last day".

[FlNewmarBob]

There is no "it depends". The placarded weights are the law as well as the manufacturers' allowable limits. There is not grey area. OCCC, CCC, GVWR, GCWR, FAWR, RAWR are never to be exceed no matter what spin someone wishes to apply. Note that FAWR and RAWR may total more than the GVWR but the GVWR is the max weight allowable.