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Old 05-03-2023, 09:45 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Mark_K5LXP View Post
Some excellent responses so far, I think you hit the jackpot for climbing the learning curve.
I really have. I researched RV forums before choosing this one. I don't sign up with websites or social media. I joined this site because what I saw here was value in the folks who genuinely love RVs, talking about them, and helping others. I read the forums for awhile but most of my questions weren't specifically addressed or the information was outdated.

My research process, eccentric as it may look, is different from most people's. But, by the time I'm done, I'll know the right RV for me without hesitation. That's due, in large part, to folks here.

Quote:
One thing that stands out is the notion of "quality". RV's aren't like choosing between a Lexus and a Yugo. RV's are a crappy house on a delivery truck no matter who built it or how much it cost. Failures and problems are the norm, and ownership is a continuous management of maintenance and repairs. If you're not mechanically adept, your options are to become adept, or be at the mercy of those that are. Getting RV's serviced is problematic no matter how much you're willing to pay. Just cautioning you that just because you have a new/newer unit, or it's the "best", or "well taken care of" it will have failures and if you can't fix it, expect you will have difficulties finding anyone that will address it especially travelling about the hinterlands. The more self sufficient you are, the more truly independent you can be.


🚨🚨🚨☝🏻THIS!☝🏻🚨🚨🚨

This is exactly why I joined this forum. I wanted as much information and opinions as possible. That's why I specifically asked if anyone had any advice on how to tour an RV you're interested in, and then how to do the final walkthrough before you sign the last paper and drive it off the lot... when it then becomes 100% MY problem and the dealer is in his office celebrating.

Rant: I didn't want to go the RV route. Truth be told, I hate them. They're not worth the money and there aren't enough laws to protect RV buyers from scams, lies, bogus warranties, lemons and just plain lack of quality. But, they serve a purpose and an RV might be my best choice due to timing.

The truth is, I don't respect RV manufacturers because I've heard 99 out of 100 RV owners talk about more than one horror story with them. Especially with going in for one repair and driving off with even more problems because of their ineptitude, carelessness, and/or sneaky corner cutting... or just not caring about quality at all. Get it in, get it out. Just like the manufacturers who don't listen to their customer base.

RVs have problems. They're not perfect. I get that. They're rolling houses that get jolted, shaken, vibrate, twisted, and bounced as they're driven on every kind of road in every kind of condition.

But, when you're paying house prices for them (which isn't an exaggeration in many places), and the manufacturers and dealerships KNOW these problems exist but refuse to address them, that rings alarm bells for me about the industry. For those prices, customers should expect BETTER. They RELY on and trust the warranties. But they're so slyly worded to avoid responsibility. You have to fight to get a warranty honored. Dealers blame the manufacturer and send you to them. Manufacturers blame the company that made the item that broke and say you have to go through them. But that company sends you back to the dealer. There's no integrity. No honesty. No responsibility. No customer service. Have you ever tried to even just get a repair shop to answer their phone when they have your RV? Warranties are just fiery hoops to jump through, thick red tape you have to chew through, weeks/months of your wasted time, and a nightmare to live through.

My original plan was to buy a cargo van and have a conversion company build it out for me. It's already designed and it has more home comforts and luxuries. It looks just like a home, not a 70's disco designed by Kmart. It's also cheaper than a lot of name brand RVs. Not to mention the quality of the build is guaranteed with no hassle warranties. Mechanics are easy as pie to find to work on them and they get better gas mileage.

But, van conversion companies are booked solid. Unless I find a cancellation, the timing isn't going to work for me and the timing plays a big role so, to fit the timing, I have to resort to an RV.

Reliability is my #1 priority. "Best" is in the eye of each RV owner, their needs, and their experiences. Two exact same RV makes and models could be completely different. One could be golden and the other a lemon. "Best" is hard to research because nothing is perfect. You can only make the best informed decision you can before you take the plunge.


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As mentioned, water is heavy and displaces other cargo capacity. I would not modify the existing tank because that's just asking for a huge expense. My take on that would be to identify one or more strategic locations within the frame that additional smaller tank(s) can be located. I would then come up with a simple plumbing setup that would allow gravity or on board pump to transfer water to/from these tanks(s) to/from the main tank. Depending on your trip you can choose to fill or not fill these tank(s). My quick and easy solution was to pack along a half dozen of those 2.5 gallon jugs from the store and dumping them into the gravity port of the tank, which works for once in a while but if I were to have a more frequent need I'd be mounting a tank somewhere.
I used to be a carpet cleaner with a van that had a 100 gallon fresh water tank and 60 gallon gray water tank, so I'm familiar with weight and tank issues. I have a company in my files that will build the fresh water tank to any shape and design that I need it to help with weight displacement issues. (Another reason I didn't want to have to go with an RV. If I go this route, it's it's definitely more expensive with the remodeling that will have to be done.)

I'm not concerned with costs at this point. I've already planned for all of it. The things I consider Must Haves were the first things budgeted for (money, weight, and space) - 50 gallon fresh water tank, an incinerating toilet, and a wood burning stove. (Though the stove is a 100% must have.) Everything in my van build was designed around those three things and I still had space for a separate shower, kitchenette, static twin bed, and a lounge area instead of a dinette. It's all about the use of space, which manufactured RV designers aren't skilled at.

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The only issue I see with your goal is you're stuck on a class C and they generally don't have a terrific amount of cargo capacity. Even being frugal you can come close to maxing the thing out just with staples. Off road/clearance is another challenge but depends a lot on where you go. I've taken my class A four wheeling at times and if you're careful you can get there from here, but it's not something I like to do often. Maybe consider a small trail bike to use for scouting the road ahead and sightseeing.

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM
What I am stuck on is it being 25 feet or less, unless it's an exceptional RV. (The 29' wanderBOX is a possibility but is likely overkill for me. But I love the off-road capability of it!) I want to be able to get into national parks (25' or less) and not have any issues with parking, turning, etc., in tight places off-grid.

Small spaces are definitely not an issue for me. I've lived all over the world in many different situations. The cargo capacity has been pre-planned as far as belongings are concerned. I already own far less than most full-time RVers and Van lifers. Other than linen, towels, and a few clothes, everything fits into two 18" x 21" tote bins. My life is that simple. Cargo weight priority is given to food and water for long off-grid stays.

I'm not saying it won't be tight/close weight-wise, but that's something everyone faces and I can only do my best. Like I mentioned before, I don't need to completely fill my 50 gallon fresh water tank every time. But having the capacity for it when I'm off-grid is everything.

The trail bike for scouting roads is something I've thought about but haven't decided on. I'm not a biker so just walking a questionable road might take more time but it's doable. A drone would be even easier, though I hate the things.

One thing's for sure. Whichever route I take RV-wise, I'll be sure to post pictures and let folks know. If it's a factory RV, I'll even post pictures after the remodel, though that would take a little time.

I'm sure my "journey" (ugh, I hate that word. It's so Oprah) to getting an RV looks off-the-wall weird to a lot of people! I'm used to that. It doesn't offend me. But, when most folks stick around long enough to see the results... that's when many say, "Ahhh... okay, I see why you did that now. You sounded crazy at first but I get it now."
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Old 05-03-2023, 10:20 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by NXR View Post
No, there is nothing an owner can do to increase the OCCC number. That number is set upon completion...
That's what I figured but, if you don't ask stupid questions, you'll never know.

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I never heard of a wanderBox before you mentioned them. Wow, what a beast. Interestingly, that 29 has a 22,000 GVWR chassis just like our 38' Class A but with bigger tires and a shorter wheelbase.
At 29', it's bigger than I initially wanted but, because it is such a beast, and considering what the world went (and still is) going through the last few years, having that kind of off-road capability isn't an unreasonable consideration anymore. I live in a big city. Getting out is priority #1. I've had it. I've always been a country kid and I need to get back to what I know and love. Cities are for strictly for avoiding and for Costco. Period. Still, I need to learn more about that vehicle itself. I'm not a mechanic so if it would be too much for me, I want to know.

Quote:
The Liquid Spring option will make it ride and handle like a dream and not a bloated, swaying truck but adds about 550 lbs so that will come off the OCCC you otherwise would have had. Still, a LOT of people think it's well worth the cost in dollars and weight. That being said, from the price I'm thinking it's LS on the rear only. See if they have the option to get LS on the rear and the front. The incremental price increase usually is about 10% to 15%. Even if the front option is not available just the rear will make a huge difference.
That's what I hear about LS. If the chassis and engine are something I can learn to know and use well enough, then I'll start on the OCCC limitations to see how viable it is as an RV for me. THEN I weigh the cost.

Quote:
I think it's great that they list every option and the price but it's problematic to me that they do not list the OCCC range.

They obviously know those numbers so I would email them and ask what the OCCC range is for the lightest one they've shipped and the heaviest one they've shipped in that model.
Once I get a good list of questions together (this was one of them), I'll be calling them.

Quote:
Yes, Big Red Flag if they refuse to provide the numbers. Sadly, I can only think of one Class A manufacturer that gives a number and it's always for the lightest possible motorhome. But this is a specialty vehicle.

Anything less than 2,500 lbs probably is a problem for full time living, even without adding the heavy mods you've mentioned.

Remember, 130 gallons of fresh water will weigh 1,117 lbs and that needs subtracted off the OCCC in the USA.

An OCCC of 2,500 lbs with 130 gallons of fresh water leaves almost 1,400 lbs for you, your pet, and your stuff.
Hence my RV industry rant to Mark in my last comment. I don't trust or respect mainstream manufacturers.

My reason for wanting an RV is because I'm going to retire shortly. I've worked hard and sacrificed A LOT (without exaggeration) to get to this point. So, I'm not skimping. I've been researching where I want to retire (at 57) permanently but you can only research online so much before you have to actually see the places. The RV would give me a place to live and the freedom to do that.

However, if I don't find an RV that's suitable, or one I feel comfortable with, my plan is to buy a Lexus GX460 for it's proven reliability and comfortable ride and do my best traveling the country in that. (It came down to this Lexus and a Toyota 4Runner. Both fantastic with known reliability so I went with Lexus for the more comfortable ride.)

Quote:
I know someone who bought that shorter Class A I mentioned above for full timing and he was appalled the first time he weighed it fully loaded up. He barely had 1,800 lbs of OCCC and was 900 lbs over GVWR and over on the axles as well. We have the same chassis and he would have been OK on ours. He just has a much heavier motorhome as it left the factory.
This is another reason I wanted to do a self-build. I could control the weight through build materials and make the compromises I wanted. It's also why I'll be modifying any RV I buy, even if it's brand new, to within an inch of it's life. It won't look like the manufacturers RV at all. In fact, if I could buy just the shell of an RV, that's exactly what I'd do. But, in all of my research, no one will sell just the shell. So be it. Like I said, I've sacrificed my entire life. I'm not about to let money and warranties stop me or set the rules. That reign is over.


Quote:
Your plan to weigh whatever you buy fully loaded up is good but take it a step further. When you pick it up it will be as empty of stuff as it will ever get (and hopefully the tanks all will be empty as well). Drive to a CAT Scale, fill it with fuel, and pull on to the scale with you in it.

It should be very close to the OCCC number minus your weight. You'll now have confirmation of what you started with. And you now know the front-rear weight distribution when empty.

Good luck,

Ray
Good point. I hadn't considered that. Does the OCCC already factor in a full tank of fuel? When I weigh it empty, how "off" can the OCCC numbers be to still be reasonable?

Once I weigh it empty, I want to fill the fresh and gray water tanks and weight it again to have that weight noted, too. In fact, I may weight it at different points with it's filled with what I need to have those numbers in my files so I know how much weight I have for all the things that will fluctuate over time, like food.

Yeah, this is overkill to a lot of people, but I tend to be a bit of a perfectionist and detail-oriented. These differing weights will come in handy in several situations I can think of.

Thanks, Ray!
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Old 05-03-2023, 10:27 AM   #31
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If I'm going to mess everything up with weight, it's in mechanical modifications. I'm glad you guys brought this up. I really need to pick and choose what I need and will use regularly only. (That's how I choose what I own with everything else - only what I use on a monthly basis, if not weekly.)

Even down the line, adding products like FlexArmor will add weight. I'm making special notes to be extra careful about weight now.

Thanks for the info on Ford below, Ron. Copied and pasted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Dittmer View Post
Interesting points about options like Liquid Springs reducing OCCC by 500 pounds. Here is a crude list of such influencers.

-500 pounds for Liquid Springs.
-400 pounds for leveling jacks.
-400 to -600 pounds for each slide-out, weight is influenced by the size.
+80 pounds for Alcoa alloy wheels, 20 pounds per wheel.
-83 pounds for a spare tire with standard steel wheel.

Here is another unofficial deviation to increase OCCC.
Every 2007 and older E350 chassis, the GVWR is 11,500 or less. Ford did NOT install a rear stabilizer bar. Ford's front stabilizer bar and shock absorbers were the same ones Ford installed on their E250 passenger and cargo vans. If you install heavy duty stabilizer bars and shocks, you unofficially increased OCCC. Add a rear trac bar and heavy duty steering stabilizer, you increased it more yet. But if you weigh your rig, you reduced OCCC because everything mentioned in this paragraph, weighs more than stock.

I unofficially reduced my OCCC when I replaced my front coil springs to lower rated ones. You can read why I changed my front springs by CLICKING HERE. Since the softer springs weigh less, I officaially increased my OCCC by a couple of pounds, but I know otherwise.
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Old 05-04-2023, 03:09 PM   #32
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From my limited (2 yrs) experience with this site it is mostly involved with Class A and larger Class C coaches. You might seek a Class B focused forum as that is what you are looking for.
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Old 05-04-2023, 04:00 PM   #33
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Ideally, a (so-called) B+ is what I'm after. And, since most RVers consider it a small C, that's how I chose this forum. Class B would have been my choice if I had the time to build out my own van. But, if wishes were horses... Class B RVs have too many compromises and would be difficult to modify how I want them without tearing everything out.

So, now I'm looking for the actual buying advice.

- What to look for while touring an RV the first time around.
- What questions to ask reps during tours.
- Then how/what to negotiate price and what to expect. (Cash, not financed. New, not used because I'm leaning heavily towards the Winnebago EKKO now, and I especially like one of the 2023 updates. I'm not concerned about resale or depreciation because I intend to keep it long term, even after I find where I want to settle.)
- What to know/negotiate with the warranty.
- What to look for during the final inspection.
- Questions that would be smart to ask while being shown how to use the RV.
- First steps once I drive it off the lot.

That kind of stuff...

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Originally Posted by Merlin63 View Post
From my limited (2 yrs) experience with this site it is mostly involved with Class A and larger Class C coaches. You might seek a Class B focused forum as that is what you are looking for.
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Old 05-04-2023, 04:35 PM   #34
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Wait until unemployment gets to 20% Elkhart IN. See financial review of the industry

We've got another eye on the 'RV indicator'...
Paid-up subscriber Joe G. recently wrote in with this idea worth sharing and checking in on...

If you want to see where the economy is heading, look no further than the unemployment rate in Elkhart County, Indiana. In the past, as the unemployment rate goes higher the economy goes lower. Due to Elkhart County having a large manufacturing base through the Recreational Vehicle business, it is usually the first to go into a recession and the first to come out of a recession. Just my thoughts after living there for 64 years. Thank you.

Thank you, Joe. I love looking at economic indicators like this from the real world.

Sales of recreational vehicles ("RVs") have long been seen as a leading indicator of the health of the American consumer. There is a good argument to be made that it is an overused indicator, like if analysts make too much of a short-term dip in RV sales, for instance... But you bring up a great point, Joe, about looking at the unemployment rate where many RVs are made.

First off, for context for everyone, Elkhart County in Indiana produces about 50% of the RVs on the road today, according to county officials, and the region is responsible for upwards of 80% of global RV production, given Americans' preference for using them more than anyone else.

Elkhart County is home to factories for publicly traded companies like Thor Industries (THO) and Winnebago Industries (WGO), along with privately owned or family-operated businesses like The RV Factory, Gulf Stream, and more.

According to Elkhart's visitors bureau...

How did it all begin? Wilbur Schult, a dynamic promoter and retailer, bought Elkhart's Sportsman Trailer Company from Milo Miller in 1936. Schult was such a promoter that by 1939, he was the largest manufacturer in the industry and Elkhart was beginning to attract lots of suppliers and more manufacturers. In addition, Elkhart's major highways and railroad transportation links and central location to large metropolitan markets made it accessible for easy shipment of goods. By the late 1940's, when things began to boom again after the war, industry magazines began calling Elkhart the "Trailer Capital of the World".

Eighty or so years later, it's still the RV capital of the world.

Today, you can tour many of the RV factories and even visit the RV/MH ("Manufactured Housing") Hall of Fame, located in the county. Now that I've shared some local history and free tourism information, let's take Joe's advice and look at the unemployment data...

A year ago, the unemployment rate in Elkhart County was the lowest in the nation at less than 2%. And while it has gradually risen over the past 12 months, it had stayed below the national average. Not anymore...

The unemployment rate in Elkhart just spiked...
The RV-manufacturing hub's unemployment jumped to 4.9% in January, the most recent data that the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics released last week. That's up from just 2.5% a month earlier – nearly double. After that startling rise, it's now above the national average of 3.6%.

Now, the RV industry of course boomed during the pandemic as more and more people sought their freedom from COVID-19 and other things. So there's bound to be significant cooling as this turn in the business cycle arrives.

However, the same can be said for the broader economy in general. Come to think of it, since so many other sectors also relied on pandemic-related trends, there actually might not be too many more relevant indicators than what's going on in the "RV Capital of the World."

To this point, Thor Industries recently cut its sales and earnings outlook, pointing to slowing sales because of sagging demand it attributed to inflation. Rising interest rates have also increased the cost of financing big-ticket items like RVs.

This is ominous news...
This chart shows the unemployment rate in Elkhart County since 1990. The gray areas indicate "official" recessions, and you can see the new spike to near 5% in the lower right corner...



The last time the unemployment rate in Elkhart County moved that dramatically higher is when it topped 30% in April 2020 amid pandemic shutdowns.

Before that, the last times it increased more than 2 percentage points in a month's time were amid the Great Recession. It rose from 6.8% in June 2008 to 9.6% that July... and from 16.2% in December 2008 to 19.8% in January 2009.

Back then, unemployment in Elkhart went on to peak at 20.6% in March 2009.

Perhaps not coincidentally, March 2009 is the same month when the U.S. stock markets finally hit financial-crisis lows... On March 9, 2009, the benchmark S&P 500 Index closed down roughly 50% from its top in October 2007.

That's the bad news...

The good news is the S&P 500 then gained 60% through the end of that year as things got "less bad."

So, if the unemployment spike in Elkhart is a sign of things to come ahead for the broader economy, it seems like most people could be caught off guard dramatically in the months ahead... And if you're a believer that it will matter for stock prices, things could get worse for stocks before they ultimately get better over the long run.

We can't know for sure what will happen next or the precise timing... But the "RV indicator" certainly has my attention that more trouble for the economy could be ahead, or at least maybe more trouble than many observers want to believe today. Still, there are also signs that a more friendly Fed environment could be on the way, too... And that could help stocks in the shorter term.
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Old 05-04-2023, 05:04 PM   #35
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Check out the Phoenix Cruiser. They have from 21' to 31' on Ford E450 plus a wide variety on the

ford Transit. There should be something to fit your needs.
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Old 05-04-2023, 05:38 PM   #36
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Sales of recreational vehicles ("RVs") have long been seen as a leading indicator of the health of the American consumer.
That was an interesting read. I appreciate it. I recall reading about this in 2019 so I'm glad to be reminded of it. Personally, and not to off-topic my own thread so I'll leave it at this: I follow the financial news quite closely. Folks are going to be astounded at the changes coming within the next year. Everything is overvalued, from RVs, to houses, to vehicles and more. This can't, and won't, continue.

Thanks again. Unfortunately, for me, timing is the number one driver of my RV hunt and I'm not in control of that. That's why my whole process changed. I'm just getting prepared for it.
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Old 05-04-2023, 05:40 PM   #37
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I've heard really good things about PC and I do like how they look. Unfortunately, their layouts don't work for me. I appreciate the suggestion!

Personally, I think European RVs beat American RVs hands down. There are at least half a dozen that would suit me to a T. American RVs, in my opinion, are the proverbial redheaded stepchild to the European makes.

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Check out the Phoenix Cruiser. They have from 21' to 31' on Ford E450 plus a wide variety on the

ford Transit. There should be something to fit your needs.
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Old 05-04-2023, 08:03 PM   #38
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Have you looked at Born Free class C coaches? They were built much better than the industry average, unfortunately they went out of business a few years ago. They would be on my short list if I were to ever be in the market for a smaller class C coach, about the only others I would consider are Coach House, and maybe Leisure Travel vans.
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Old 05-04-2023, 09:04 PM   #39
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Hey, Advice

Hey, as far as Newbie go I would say call around to different RV inspectors and pick their minds but first have some list of brand and model and trim packs your interested in so you don't take to much of there time. Homework Homework and more.... it takes a lot some model years a stinkers other good.


Good Luck and like shoot craps try not to get snake eyes.
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Old 05-04-2023, 10:22 PM   #40
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You may want to consider a smaller class A. Way more outside storage, bigger holding tanks and a great view while driving. We started looking at C’s and my Dad said, class A all the way, you will never convince me otherwise. Turns out he was right......again.
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Old 05-04-2023, 10:55 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Jack Parker View Post
I've heard really good things about PC and I do like how they look. Unfortunately, their layouts don't work for me. I appreciate the suggestion!

Personally, I think European RVs beat American RVs hands down. There are at least half a dozen that would suit me to a T. American RVs, in my opinion, are the proverbial redheaded stepchild to the European makes.
https://www.wingamm.com/us/camper-ca...i-690-gc/#info

These are European RV’s, the only thing is just one model is available in the US right now. The other ones are coming soon. Very nice construction, modern looking inside, space efficient. No 4x4 I don’t think.
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Old 05-05-2023, 06:53 AM   #42
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It sounds to me like you need to explore the world of "Overlanding" or 4x4 camper vans.
https://www.thewaywardhome.com/off-road-adventure-van/
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