Non ethanol fuel

[PJStough]

Originally Posted by Hooligan

The concern with ethanol fuel is that it readily attracts and absorbs water. As little as 1/2 of one percent water can cause the ethanol to separate and settle to the bottom of the tank...(phase separation) The engine may then draw only the ethanol/water mix and run very lean and damage the engine, or not run at all...

We all can see how big of a problem this is by the number of gasoline powered vehicles we see that are stalled along the highways because of phase separation.

[LifeSalt]

Originally Posted by PJStough

We all can see how big of a problem this is by the number of gasoline powered vehicles we see that are stalled along the highways because of phase separation.

...😁

[jerryd13]

BE ADVISED, some vehicles manufactured and designed for non leaded fuels have or may have, components that Leaded gas will damage. SOME- Catalytic converters and other parts are not suitable for LEADED gasoline. Go online and use the year and model for your engine to verify if Leaded gasoline is approved. Asking people on this site will bring you 25 differing opinions, get the facts, not opinions from the manufacture on such questions.

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by PJStough

We all can see how big of a problem this is by the number of gasoline powered vehicles we see that are stalled along the highways because of phase separation.

Hooligan (also) said
"Small engines, especially 2 stroke, or RV's that are stored for long periods and at lower temps are prone to this problem,
Water from condensation is often the problem, so store equipment with a full tank."
(I think cut/paste is malfunctioning on your computer, as it missed that part)

That would mean you should see mostly older small to medium displacement dirt bikes, and seasonal use Ford V10 powered motorhomes, stalled along the side of the highways, not all gasoline powered vehicles. Just the 2 specific groups Hooligan referenced. That you missed.

[GypsyR]

Older small dirt bikes stalled along the side of the highways. That's where the best riding is for sure.

(I know, I know, but that's how it reads.) On my small engines (about eight last count) they get water in the fuel from the humidity around here which causes the alcohol to drop out and settle into the bottom of the tanks where it causes trouble. A rough way to measure the alcohol content in gasoline it to pour a measured amount of it into a beaker. Then add a measured amount of water. Cover and leave overnight. The day it will have separated so you can then read the level of the mixture at the bottom, subtract the amount of water you added and then you know how much water was in that amount of gasoline. With a little math. Some people even use water this way and then pour off the "purified" gasoline off the top for whatever purpose they want alcohol-free gasoline for. It drops the octane rating pretty significantly when you do that though. OK for old lawnmower engines and such that have low octane requirements.

[cavie]

Originally Posted by Mudfrog

Gasoline around here is supposedly limited to 10% ethanol. Every gasoline combustion engine we own is fine with this. From my own personal experience, I've never had a problem using gasoline with ethanol. Long term storage has never been an issue. And no, I don't believe in using fuel additives. I also know darn well that I'd be in the hole money wise because it would never provide enough benefit to offset its initial higher per gallon cost.

Newer gasoline engines from the factory are made to work with ethanol fuel so I doubt seriously there'd ever be any advantage in using ethanol free.

If you lived in a high humidity State you would soon change your mind. 2 cycle motors hate that stuff in storage. I got very tired of cleaning out carbs before we had none-e around here.

[PJStough]

Originally Posted by GypsyR

Older small dirt bikes stalled along the side of the highways. That's where the best riding is for sure.

(I know, I know, but that's how it reads.) On my small engines (about eight last count) they get water in the fuel from the humidity around here which causes the alcohol to drop out and settle into the bottom of the tanks where it causes trouble...

How does the humidity get into the tanks of the small engines?

[grindstone01]

Originally Posted by cavie

If you lived in a high humidity State you would soon change your mind. 2 cycle motors hate that stuff in storage. I got very tired of cleaning out carbs before we had none-e around here.

I store my small motors and antique farm tractors with empty fuel tanks and never had any condensation or bad fuel problems. New engine manufactures ship their lawn mowers, etc with dry fuel tanks and they may sit in storage for many months before being sold. Water condensation don't happen in empty dry tanks! It's the water in the fuel that is settling out and being blamed as condensation. Support your local corn farmers and demand clean burning ethanol fuel at fuel stations.

[Skiddy]

Originally Posted by jerryd13

BE ADVISED, some vehicles manufactured and designed for non leaded fuels have or may have, components that Leaded gas will damage. SOME- Catalytic converters and other parts are not suitable for LEADED gasoline. Go online and use the year and model for your engine to verify if Leaded gasoline is approved. Asking people on this site will bring you 25 differing opinions, get the facts, not opinions from the manufacture on such questions.

huh, leaded and non-leaded gasoline hasn't a thing to do with ethanol
on my small engines I use 100% as well as older vehicles, before flex fuel requirements.
now if someone wants to check out the mess with ethanol in small engines (outboard boat motors for example) there is a lot of information on how white rust did ruin their engines.

[Hooligan]

Originally Posted by PJStough

How does the humidity get into the tanks of the small engines?

Condensation, like an iced tea glass. As fuel is used the tank draws in air, as the fuel tank cools moisture from that air or the fuel condenses settles beneath the fuel. Repeats as fuel heats/expands and cools/contracts..

[GypsyR]

Exactly. Cool lawnmower in the garage gets hot in use and then put back in the cool garage again. Which may be damp anyway.
In certain humidity and temperature conditions in spring and fall I can go out to my garage to find my motorcycle, machine tools, and engines absolutely covered in water droplets just like the iced tea Hooligan describes above.
One nasty fact is that this happens inside internal combustion engines too. But if they are run long enough at proper operating temperature this moisture is "burned off". Ones that aren't run like that end up needing a rebuild if it goes on long enough.

People who live in the southwest are saying "what is this condensation thing you are talking about?" For good reason. In the drier parts of the country they've never seen such issues, there's not enough humidity on a regular basis to cause any.

[grindstone01]

Originally Posted by GypsyR

Exactly. Cool lawnmower in the garage gets hot in use and then put back in the cool garage again. Which may be damp anyway.
In certain humidity and temperature conditions in spring and fall I can go out to my garage to find my motorcycle, machine tools, and engines absolutely covered in water droplets just like the iced tea Hooligan describes above.
One nasty fact is that this happens inside internal combustion engines too. But if they are run long enough at proper operating temperature this moisture is "burned off". Ones that aren't run like that end up needing a rebuild if it goes on long enough.

.

The reason you see condensation on the outside of a fuel tank or engine is because the outside surface is exposed to unlimited volumes of moisture laden air. The tank or engine inside has a limited trapped amount of air inside that may carry a fraction of a water drop suspended it. Also in a tank, the liquid creates a heat sink that cools at a slower rate than the outside air and that temp difference attracts water if it's below the dew point. You won't see a empty tank with condensation on it. It's better to store them tanks dry!
Here is a interesting experiment on empty tank storage.
https://pbase.com/mainecruising/fuel_tankt_condensation

[Ron Dittmer]

I live in the northwest suburbs of Chicago. I cannot buy pure gasoline here. All gas regardless of octane has 10% ethanol. The exception is E-15 which has 15% ethanol. I have to buy pure gas for my 2-cycle yard equipment at improvement centers in one gallon containers. It's ridiculous.

The only benefit I see having 10% ethanol in gasoline is that I have 10% gas line antifreeze during cold winter temperatures. Though it is sold, only ignorant consumers buy gas line antifreeze because our fuel tanks have gallons of it by default.

[GypsyR]

I think I learned about how condensation forms sometime in junior high school, well over 40 years ago, but thanks all the same.

I find it extraordinarily inconvenient to fully drain a fuel tank each and every time I stop using a piece of equipment and it's pretty humid around here, so....
My last two stroke piece was a chainsaw. My rule was to not use it unless I had a stack of work and not to stop until it ran out of gas. I would then store is that way. It refused to start at all one day and I solved the entire issue by investing in a Milwaukee battery powered chainsaw and never looked back.