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Old 06-03-2019, 12:48 AM   #29
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Yes, running the genny 24x7 will of course keep the batteries charged. My thoughts are about dry camp for more than 3 nights. There is no switch to disconnect the solar, I added a cutoff switch to disconnect the NEG feed from panels to controller and the NEG from controller to battery. the disconnects allow me to work on batteries etc. without getting on the roof or a ladder to unplug the panels. I'm still working on the "right" answer to why unplug panels but it is the same reason I turn off the converter when the solar is charging, ie., trying to harvest solar AH. One or the other wins, normally solar at a higher voltage when both are on. I have proven that to my satisfaction with the Fluke. If the converter is ON when the sun comes up the solar will not harvest amps, proven. If the converter is OFF when the sun comes up solar will harvest amps. If the solar is charging running the genny for the converter does not seem to help at all unless solar is shut off. I know that is not entirely true but reading the current on the Fluke is all I have to measure but it is related to the Pulse Width Modulation of the solar controller and the fact that if one source is charging the other charger sees a good battery. Two mornings ago I shut off the converter, batteries full, and left the fridge on, nothing else and let it run until this evening. Solar kept the batteries pretty much up to 12.6vdc when I turned on the converter tonight, not bad. Solar harvest was really good, 66AH today. Bright sun mostly during both days so I was able to run the fridge and keep a decent charge on the batteries. Adding the third panel will make that work in bright light on a good solar day for dry camp with care and frugal use otherwise. When it hurts is a few cloudy rainy days out of your three or four. If I unplug solar (switch off the disconnects) the converter will do a better job charging the batteries on those days. Just don't use a lot of other stuff and try to park where you don't annoy others with the generator. I think we have 275 hours on our little diesel genny in 16 months of ownership. Testing the whole mess has been tedious, you have to start a test with batteries down to 40% SOC, watch solar charge - then start with batteries full etc. All the combinations and record the graphs, record what is on, record solar AH harvested and then try to see what is happening. My goal in all this mess was to minimize generator run time in dry camp. One obvious thing is to replace the two 100 watt flexi panels WGO installed with three rigid panels of the exact same make and spec, use the 170 watt panels if I can make them fit. That will pretty much max out my roof space for solar. When these Trojan batteries reach end of life I probably will jump into LiFeP04 and all that entails. I only need to harvest just over 100AH per day to be good. Some days here with cloud cover I have only harvested 15-20 so solar is a huge variable. It works and you can do long boondocks if you keep up and know the generator must run if solar is low, just don't get too far behind that power curve. Now I do recommend a battery monitor for most folks, keep up with AH used and put in and where your SOC is. It will be an estimate but far better than a guess. One charging source at a time and you can do 3 or 4 nights where generator run time is limited to daytime AM & PM a few hours. Then head for a power pole plug. If you can't recharge to 100%, each day you start the curve a little lower. Now that's normally not a big deal for the "old days" with a LP fridge because you didn't use many AH, now you are using AH significantly 24x7. So day two you start at 80%, day three at 60% and day four - turn off solar and run genny all day but you can't get to 100%, impossible.I'm starting with almost 150 AH usable to stay above 50% discharge. If you have the luxury of dry camp where you can do a 24 hour generator run you are OK. You don't have to get the tank full, just keep it from depleting too far. Somewhere there must be a book about this, I've written too much - done.
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Old 06-03-2019, 04:53 AM   #30
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Thanks for all that what switch did you use and did you mount it on a wall?
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Old 06-03-2019, 08:56 AM   #31
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You don't disconnect solar. Solar charging is controlled by its own controller and operating all three (solar, alternator, and generator) can be easily done without harming the batteries.
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Old 06-03-2019, 10:12 PM   #32
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Some controllers might autosense, the ZAMP does not. My Fluke 375 does not lie, only ONE source will charge at a time. On a bad solar day with the genny OFF solar is still working, maybe only turning out 3 or 4 amps. You want to charge the batteries and start the genny - no change because the PD9245 sees a fully charged battery - true. Think about it, the PD9245 is not magic, it only looks at voltage, it has absolutely no way to measure SOC of the battery bank, it is "dumb". When you start the genny converter sees say 13.5 on the batteries and it is done, going into float. The combination of the Zamp PWM and the PD9245 effectively cancel out the charge current, almost. That's what the Fluke shows. It is really interesting to watch the graph build on my phone when the ZAMP controller is putting out just enough to run the fridge and the fridge is on duty cycle. The converter will be in float, very low amps, and try to charge - then is says, oops already charged. There are many scenarios but none allow the converter to get into bulk charge at high amps - which is exactly what you need to get amps back in the battery bank. It may seem foolish but that's what happens. And...you say, no way WGO or anyone would not see that and plan for it and I would say - really? Now if you have a manual charger and can push it into bulk mode, yeah, you can force a charge that way. Even my big monster charger on the farm sees no reason to charge with solar on, it just immediately goes into the green and says - ready, charged, go. I can force that one into 75amp mode but that's overkill. The mode the PD9245 goes into is based on the voltage it sees on the battery, if it is below 12.7 it charges, below 12.6 etc. It picks an appropriate mode but all based on battery voltage except for the 15 hour or so cycle it will do periodically. It obviously can't get into that mode when you just turned on the genny. I did provide graphs I think showing that, maybe not but I can at the other forum gallery, I saved those as well. It's not about harming the batteries, it is about recharging them with the converter and genny dry camping. You must get that converter to charge, not float, or you are just burning diesel. The graphs show it clearly. discharge the battery, solar off, turn on converter - it spikes a high amp rate and settles in to the stage the voltage called for, same thingwith converter off and solar off - start engine and get a big spike as alternator charges - those spikes and higher amps show negative on the FLUKE 375 FC, generally you will always see negative graph with either of those. The PWM Zamp always shows positive or uncharged amps, it's the voltage from either source that provides the pressure to push the charge. Absorption is usually higher voltage14+ and very low amps to finish the last 10-20% of charge. When absorption finishes it normally would go into float, lower voltage trickle charge.

And the disconnects are Blue Sea Systems 300 amp M-series battery switches. Overkill but they look really good. Mounted in the compartment just to the right of the solar controller on the adjacent wall. About $25ea from Amazon. You need some terminations (ring lugs) and a crimp tool and a few feet of wire, a mount panel to screw into the 1x behind the wall. You will see that clearly when you pull the Zamp controller. Unplug the panels on the roof while you are working just in case, you don't want to short them. Automotive shops have dual and triple instrument mount panels - great.
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Old 06-04-2019, 05:14 AM   #33
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Controller

Interesting topic, it would be nice to have Zamp or Winnebago step up here and address this topic. Would using a MPPT controller solve this?
With off switches on both negatives I assume you mean the solar controller and not a charge controller that switches between the three sources, ie solar, converter and chassis alternator. Realize I don’t know how the current from the three sources is managed or switched between, it appears from your description that they are independent each only reading battery charge?
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Old 06-04-2019, 05:44 AM   #34
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Yes, the switches are on the neg input and output of the solar controller, only the output is needed to shut off the connect to battery. For utility purposes I just did both sides. The thing is battery resistance to charge increases with state of charge, that's why you have to push the last 10-20% back in under higher voltage and lower amps. AFAIK in my View all three charge sources act independently. The alternator is much more "pushy" since it is the more powerful of the three. If I had different panels, non-exact match, I would put in a MPPT controller. With the Zamp you might add a 175 watt panel but the weakest link (original flexis) will drag down the new panel and you would loose that benefit or a major portion of it. I experienced having one panel bad and it did remarkably drag down the good one, unplug the bad one and the good one was able to put out max amps and correct voltage. With a PWM controller like Zamp you want all panels an exact match in wattage, volts, everything. Easiest way is to use all panels in a PWM controller exact size and electrical spec from the same vendor/mfg. I frequently hear folks say they solved their battery charging problem by adding x,y or z big panel to the Zamp already on the roof. They possibly lost 30% of potential capacity gain unless they put in a MPPT controller and pulled that PWM Zamp.

Again, there is no harm having all three charge sources going at one time, none. If generator is running converter on, solar is on and engine is running you are not hurting anything and the alternator will do it's thing. Lot of folks think the PD9245 will dump out a 45 amp charge in bulk mode - never is going to happen, maybe 10. The discussion is focused on dry camping solutions for a new View with the compressor fridge.
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Old 06-04-2019, 06:46 AM   #35
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These charts for Progressive show time to charge, voltage etc and their name for the stage of charging. The article also says that ALL amps are available to charge unless not otherwise being used. I have never seen more than 10 amps from the PD9245 monitored at the batt neg to ground, never. Max has been around 10 amps, usually around 7 then it drops to 3 or 4 amps during their "normal" stage. their final stage, storage mode, is just a trickle charger.


https://www.progressivedyn.com/wp-co...1F-english.pdf


You always have to remember amps are being used in the duty cycle of the refrigerator 24x7 as well.



The solar controller seems to be much "smarter" than the PD9245, it actually will complete a 14.7 volt low amp charge (for the last 10-20%) and get down to almost 0 amps or FULL charge with the fridge off. Let it rest overnight and the hydrometer will confirm full charge (if everything is turned off, ie neg battery to ground disconnected).


If you have the remote pendant for the PD9245 you should be able to force it into bulk charge mode according to documentation. I have not purchased the remote pendant, probably need to.
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Old 06-06-2019, 04:12 PM   #36
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Big bird

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Originally Posted by big bird 1 View Post
We just sold our 40 ft Forest River Cardinal 5th wheel. It was time to get something shorter. We are looking at the Wayfarer and the View 25 ft Sprinter. We would appreciate the opinion of folks on the this site.


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M and J
We downsized to a Thor Citation Sprinter. Now I wish I had looked closer to a Ford chassis class c. The Sprinter is a 2016 chassis and is licensed as a 2018 Coach. Plus anytime you need service you have to go to a Mercedes dealer for service which is generally not convenient or a Fright Liner dealer. You can generally find a Ford dealer in any decent sized town. Also I have found the Sprinter to be expensive to service compared to the Ford. Just my thoughts, good luck.
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Old 06-06-2019, 04:26 PM   #37
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Buy a clean used class c in the length of your choice and save serious money. The Ford V-10 chassis is great. Parts are easy to get from Ford and they travel well
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Old 06-06-2019, 05:23 PM   #38
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Went from 30' Class "A" to 23' Winnie View n love it. Excellent for 2 folks and one dog. As we spend much time hiking, etc. & aren't aboard often in daylight...weather permitting of course, is right sized for us. Enjoy.
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Old 06-06-2019, 07:19 PM   #39
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Just sold my 2019 25' Thor Four Winds on the Mercedes Benz Sprinter chassis. I'm betting I didn't read the fine print but I hauled a 7 X 16 enclosed trailer with a Harley Trike in it, all over the country. I never knew the trailer was back there unless I turned on the rear camera or did a quick wiggle while going down the road. It was my 4th RV since I retired in 2011. I owned an earlier model gas Class C, a Class B+, a beautiful 38' Thor DP Tuscany, and then the Baby Thor. Truth be told, at 76 and single, the thrill of RVing just slipped away...I think I'm going to stick with the Infiniti 70L and a nice roadside hotel. Good luck.
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Old 06-07-2019, 06:30 AM   #40
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Hey Bib BIRD, I too am in your exact position and trying to decide between these two coaches. I have read read through the many reply’s on this thread and agree with some, but not with most. In my case, we have decided to sit and wait for a couple of more months before we make the choice. The reason for this is we definitely want to make sure that we are getting the new MB chassis - the VS30 - there are many changes that Mercedes has made, which has caused both manufacturers to make upgrades to each coach. These (VS-30), are just now trickling out, since AMAZON has ordered the first 20K VS-30 chassis which has caused all RV up builders to have to wait. (BTW - you have to assume that Amazon has the resources to do the research on any and all chassis but chose MB Sprinter) I am a Tiffin guy but the wife wants to the W-View. Tiffin has the better reputation as it applies to Service, but I must admit, Winnebago has the better tech,,,at least in the 2019/20 View and the OCCC is much higher (almost double the Tiffin FOR CERTAIN MODELS) for the View. BTW many in this thread seem to think that OCCC is not really important, yet both manufacturers have legally listed the overall weights - in writing - they do that for a reason(s),,,,safety, performance, engineering, negligence, and mostly because of legal liability. Believe me if they didn’t have to list the overall weights they wouldn’t - but it is a pretty big deal. 50 to 100 pounds may not cause a lot of issues, but double or triple that will! As for the refrigerator, Absorption vs Compressor - I will take compressor or the 12v/electric any day of the week. In my opinion Absorption are for lower end, smaller rv’s that may not have the electrical systems to support compressor based reefers and just take a look at the top tier manufacturers none of them are using the LP refrigerators. About the only major option I would be adding to which ever coach I go with, will be for the Lithium upgrade. Both are still using the older Lead Acid based batteries which haven’t changed in almost 100yrs..”lead is dead”, however Winnebago at least packages the new coaches with group 31 batteries, 2K inverter and some solar, Tiffin does not. My understanding is that for the View the Lithium option also upgrades the generator to diesel - again would be my choice. BTW I am assuming that you are looking at a NEW out of the wrapper coach....if not then disregard this entire post, since these issues only apply to the 2019/20 versions for either Tiffin or Winnebago. Good luck on your decision and happy trails.
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Old 06-07-2019, 07:40 AM   #41
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17V is a 3 way fridge, not battery

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Originally Posted by Coffie Drink View Post
Please check out the 2020 View on the WGO site. Mercedes is shipping the 20 chassis. Best upgrade is the 7 speed transmissions, yes MB nav and many goodies are included. The View D is quite nice. I watched BT videos of that unit. Not shipping yet.
That said the MB 3500 is still the same. I hoped MB Sprinter 4500 would be used as it adds over a 1000 lbs to the OCCC.
To recap, cost more, handles the same, 7 speed vs 5 speed tranny and some additions to the Nav/ systems. The new View changes included a better door, cleaner look, revised cab with a lower hump for a revised front sleeper. It is supposed to have better insulation. All units come with the overhead. The cooker is gas and induction plate. The 3 way are replaced with compressor frig but this was true on the 17 as well. Batteries can be upgraded to lithium ion or 2 G 31 , 2000 watt pure sine invertor, 2 100 watt solar, auto transfer for 30 amp shore/gen. The list goes on. Go to winnebagoind.com to read the specs.
I you are shopping wait for 2020, I would


I passed on the Wayfarer vs View immediately because of the OCCC.
I feel most people overlook the importance of safety and essential ratings. It’s not a game out on the road.

I’m reminded of this when I’m passed on an interstate by RVs, both motorized and trailers at dangerous speeds. To say ‘it’s ok to push the weight limits’ is dangerous and irresponsible.
Trucks have lower speed limits on highways for a reason. I’ve driven 40 ton “rigs” (as RVers like to refer to their motorhomes) for a living. RVers should respect the responsibilities as ‘truckers’. If you want to pretend you’re a ‘trucker’....then follow the rules. I cruise my class-c at 60 mph (at factory recommended tire pressures)

The Tiffin (was a first year model) in the 600-700lbs range, while my 17VJ is 1222 lbs on the yellow sticker placed by Winnebago. The tires are set to the appropriate 60 psi rating, nothing less. I refuse to add levelers that add too much weight and load it accordingly with minimal and necessary items only.
Personally, I prefer no slides for various reasons. First is, I don’t want any bed dependent on opening a slide. I don’t leave a slide open in severe weather including rain or snow. My VJ floor plan meets all my desires and storage needs with the exception of having a single slide that never needs to open. I originally considered the VV but preferred the open floor plan and comfortable/versatile U-shaped dinette with superior storage area.

My response was only to comment that the 2017 fridge is 3 way, not compressor driven. I wouldn’t have it any other way. This is NOT my rolling house. It is an adventure vehicle. I have solar and a diesel ‘sipping’ generator which saves on the precious LP commodity for when you need it.

My suggestion is buy a used 2016-2017 Winnebago View/Navion.

IMHO.....all that said, you’ll do what you want.
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Old 06-07-2019, 10:58 AM   #42
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Same Here

We too are trying to decide on a Class C also, the biggest advantage that I see is the build quality of the Tiffin. The Tiffin has a seamless one piece roof and seamless slides, it may help down the road with leaks. So time will tell about our decision down the road.
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