Winnebago Ekko vs LTV Wonder AWD

[Rzrbrn]

Thanks Jmcarter, I have not inspected a Nexus. I was hoping they were high quality.

[Rocinante440]

Can't find anything online about the Tiffin Midas. If it's smaller and nimbler than the Tiffin Wayfarer and has a storage garage in back under the bed where we could put bicycles, I'd be interested to see what it looks like.

[Ron Dittmer]

I don't want to randomly throw in another contender to the W-Ekko and L-Wonder, but have you people looked into the Phoenix TRX? If a 4x4 chassis is an "absolute" requirement, I would call Phoenix USA to see if they can build a 4x4 version for you. They did for many years but not certain as of late, I believe COVID may have played a part.

I have read your requirements for massive amounts of battery reserves, not sure why the requirement, but the TRX comes with two 6V deep cycle batteries. Our now old 2007 Phoenix Cruiser 2350 Here with two 6V deep cycle AGM batteries has been meeting our needs where we primarily camp without shore power.

If a 4x4 is an absolute, but a Transit chassis is not, there are a number of now used Phoenix Cruiser 4x4 E350s and E450s that were built and a few now available in the used market from 21 to 31 feet long in a number of floor plans. Again stating, I don't know if Phoenix still builds new QUIGLEY 4X4 versions, but the question is worth asking the Phoenix Cruiser factory. Tiny Cooper and her husband are the current owners of Phoenix USA. They were at the Tampa show, not sure how easily they can be reached at this moment, but Tina's cell number is 773-339-0299. If a 4x4 is off their table, consider taking your finished Transit or E-series rig to Quigley, and have the 4x4 conversion done post-build. 4x4 Phoenix Cruiser owners love their Quigley. A Quigley conversion is "Ford Approved" so there is no concern of voiding your new vehicle warranty.

For over 2 decades, the Phoenix Cruiser has been well known for "Quality". Back in 2007 when we bought our new 2007 model 2350, a slideshow presentation was made, then updated a year or two later. The Phoenix Cruiser is still made to this standard. Click on the video below and turn up your volume.

The Making Of A Phoenix Cruiser

Generally speaking, Phoenix Cruisers are built with all the on-board capacities like full-size class C motorhomes, but are scaled-down in height and width (length pending floor plan) with greatly improved aerodynamics for ease of driving, maneuvering, storing, and also improved fuel economy. They are also engineered and equipped for winter camping. For reference, our 2007 model 2350 HERE built on a 2007 E350 chassis with the 6.8L-V10 engine and 5 speed TorqShift automatic transmission of that era, our fuel economy trip averages are ~10.5 mpg when not towing, and ~9.5 mpg when towing our 2006 Jeep Liberty 4x4. A new 2022 3.5L-Eco-Boost gasoline Phoenix TRX Transit today gets 11 to 12 mpg when not towing. It's not a world of difference in that regard, but the difference in power, towing capacity and GVWR is significant. The gap closes further when considering the latest 2022 E350 & E450 with the latest 7.3L-V8 engine with even more power than the previous V10 engine. Adding the current 6-speed transmission that works extremely well in combination for even better fuel economy than we get, so don't be too quick to rule out the E350 and E450 chassis.

[jmcarter]

Originally Posted by Rocinante440

Can't find anything online about the Tiffin Midas. If it's smaller and nimbler than the Tiffin Wayfarer and has a storage garage in back under the bed where we could put bicycles, I'd be interested to see what it looks like.

There’s a YouTube video on it from Tampa. And yes, folding bikes would fit in the storage area as well as bikes with front wheels removed.

[Rocinante440]

Thanks for that link. Here are the same comments about the Tiffin Midas that I added to their YT channel, in case they're in a listening mood:

The good: love the galley layout and the bike garage, assuming I can get a couple of conventional bikes in there. The bathroom layout also looks nice.

The not so good: interior looks cheap, no Lagun table mounts front and back, didn’t see whether front seats spin around to form a forward lounge. With jump seats in front, you must be able to mount a table there, or the space is wasted. Need to have at least 600Ah of lithium and a 3kW inverter charger. Lose the generator, add a second alternator, and replace the the 3-way fridge with a 12V compressor fridge.

See, here's the thing about Tiffin: It's a premier brand. This is not a price-leader brand. Given the price point, they're clearly trying to use this unit to compete head-to-head with WGO and Coachmen. That's a terrible idea. Even WGO's EKKO has an option for a pair of Lithion batteries and no generator, and they use a 12V compressor fridge. When one takes this into account, at this point Tiffin's Midas offering is seriously underwhelming - e.g. it comes in with even fewer features than EKKO, and more in line with the Coachmen offering. This offering would be better from the Thor brand or some other lower-end brand in their portfolio, instead of using it to downgrade the Tiffin brand. (insert eye roll here)

[Rzrbrn]

I may be tilting at windmills here, I agree with everything you have said Rocinante440, except for the generator. Need a good, strong, in coach generator. This is to charge the batteries in those north central states which seem to have an inordinate number of cloudy days. I have lithium batteries, monocrystaline solar panels, and an in coach generator that we can start with the push of a button while sitting inside. I have a 2 way fridge and may eventually put in a 12V, but would do so only with having a generator handy.

[Rocinante440]

Hey, it's a-ok to want a generator. Your money, your choices. WGO offers EKKO with and without one, which is nice.

We don't have or want a TOAD, so we move our rig often enough that if the unit has a 2nd alternator we would easily be able to make up any charge deficit while driving to our next area for adventures, or even just grocery shopping.

Not sure anyone was watching, but to prove my point, the Tiffin Wayfarer now has a Thor clone called the Tiburon. Thor has even pushed a Super C clone into Tiffin called the Allegro Bay. Seriously, folks, I think Thor is pushing Tiffin into a price-competitive space vs. a luxury premier space. It's a shame, really. (sigh)

[Rzrbrn]

Interesting. I Googled Tiffin Allegro Bay and it took me to the website for the model 38AB. I then poked around the Tiffin website and it has not been actually included in the line up. That is, if you Google the Tiffin website then try to find the Allegro Bay it does not seem to be listed.

My ideal would be the Nexus Rebel (4x4) floorpan and chassis built by Tiffin. The Old Tiffin, that is.

A couple of years ago I went in to buy a new Airstream and was so turned off by the quality of the build I bought a new Big Foot TT from the same dealership. Not sure if I blame Thor or Airstream for the shoddy workmanship.

I bought a diesel pickup to pull it with and I must say it has exceeded my expectations, performance wise. High maintenance and fuel costs are real bummers, but it would be hard to go back to gas, hence the thoughts of Super C.

We considered the Sprinter/Mercedes Class C, and almost bought one. The last one we looked at had a single large slide, which was out. It was very nice, right up to the moment we sat in the slide and felt the coach lean way over. The salesman said a ground support under the slide had not been put out. We could not leave fast enough.

The Winnebago Mini Winnie 25B with the new Ford V8 gives one pause for thought as an alternative to a Super C.

[Ron Dittmer]

Originally Posted by Rzrbrn

The Winnebago Mini Winnie 25B with the new Ford V8 gives one pause for thought as an alternative to a Super C.

I hear a lot of "good" concerning the new E350 and E450 with the 7.3L-V8 engine. As one might expect, the first year had a minor recall (so far) something related to wiring getting heat-damaged. A new 2022 E350 or E450 chassis seems like a real safe reliable choice. I understand that compared to the previous 6.8L-V10, the current engine has more horse power & torque, better behaviors, and improved fuel economy however minor it might be.

If you absolutely must have a 4x4, there are Ford-approved companies who convert the E350/E450 chassis to a 4x4. I am vaguely familiar with QUIGLEY because the maker of my RV PHOENIX USA offered that option for many years, only recently dropping it [Mod Edit]. I imagine when RVs once again become harder to sell, Phoenix USA will again offer the 4x4 option to increase sales. But right now, they can't build PCs fast enough without complicating their output process.

[Jack Parker]

This thread was helpful. I'm trying to learn more about the Ekko right now. The bathroom is just.... yikes. I'd use a Luggable Loo and a pee jug before a cassette toilet. (Major aversion!) At least removing it would give more room in the shower. Actually, I have possible structural modification I would make but it would be difficult to explain and isn't important for this post. But the cassette toilet would be GONE.

I'm staying open minded about the Ekko. I actually love the small size of it. I would want more solar and no generator, tv, microwave, or bat wing awning.

EKKO Pros:

- Simple cab. Not distracting or full of junk I won't use.
- Fold down table.
- Layout is right for me. (<--- huge)
- Propane stove. Love it!
- Shower is decent for what it is. I'd add a shower curb on the bottom though for better protection against leaks in the cab.
- Bedroom. It has a lot of modification possibilities down the line but aren't necessary right away.

EKKO Cons:

- Ceiling magnets to hold open the cabinet doors. Easy mod.
- Cabinets have no lip on the edge on them. Easy mod.
- Cubbies on each side of the tv don't have a door. Easy mod.
- Screen door. I like, but would prefer a retractable one myself.
- Microwave. I hate them. Turn it into a cabinet. Easy mod.
- Fridge is okay but would prefer it on floor level where the breakers are to leave the space above the fridge open. Would look into breakers being moved to the cabinet where the microwave was instead.
- NO HEAT IN THE BEDROOM! The vents on the ceiling are ONLY for A/C.
- Acrylic windows. Bedroom windows are terrible. They transfer the heat and the cold far more than normal windows. Would likely replace all the windows in the van.
- The water pump cubby under one of the beds is a cold zone. It needs to be insulated differently.
- Bedroom wall above the water pump cubby is said to be a condensation gatherer because it's more exposed and possibly due to the bat wing cubby? (Possible problem.)
- Gulper pump instead of gravity fed draining. When on, the pump is loud. (Thankfully, in the 2023 model, this got moved outside and the inverter switch and breaker were moved to the inside.)


My first love was the LTV Wonder RL. Currently, it's a three year waiting list here in the states once you build it out online. The rear lounge is the ultimate in home comfort to me. But, since doing research, LTV is now off my list completely. They have a lot of interior issues and, from what I've heard from a lot of LTV folks, their customer service leaves a lot to be desired. That's a huge turn off. Customer service is everything to me.

I like the layout of the Winnebago Travato and could work with it but it's not my first choice.

I had a friend with a Tiffin and she loved it... at first. She had nightmarish structural issues that she tried to work with but it wasn't worth it. A one off? Maybe. But still...

Sportsmobiles are out. I don't want a pop top.

Trying to at least get my RV considerations narrowed down, I'm now looking at Phoenix Cruisers.

The EKKO is now #1 on my list.

[jmcarter]

Winnebago customer service superior to LTV? Do you suppose LTV has a three year waiting list without offering good customer service?

[Rocinante440]

I'm thinking that three year wait for an LTV will shorten considerably as interest rates keep rising and people rediscover that RVs of any sort (unless you are full time) are a luxury rather than a necessity. So, I'd keep in touch with local dealers and encourage them to call if a unit is orphaned by failure to take delivery, and I'd look at the used market as prices generally continue to soften in that space. Given you are also looking at true Class B units (Travato), you may want to consider Pleasure-Way, which has a good reputation for quality even if they are a little behind on power technology (e.g. they use lithium batteries, but not enough), or maybe a gently used Airstream Interstate 24 that you can upgrade to meet your needs. We did the latter, and it has worked out well. Sure we've spent money on repairs and upgrades, but compared to the price of a new unit we're still well ahead on total cost.

[SergioP]

Originally Posted by Jack Parker

This thread was helpful. I'm trying to learn more about the Ekko right now.

The EKKO is now #1 on my list.

Here’s an Ekko thread. https://www.irv2.com/forums/f101/ekk...rs-581176.html

[sedaliaterry]

Just finished 3kmi trip in our 22 Ekko. Came from 2017 32ft Newmar BayStar.

1st Year Ekko's definitely have/had their issues (lots). A lot of these have been sorted out in the 2nd yr versions, although even they have some new chassis related recalls delaying deliveries. Good rule some have to never buy 1st or even 2nd yr models. I will say that the Ekko takes no prisoners. If you are not pretty handy at working on things (electrical, plumbing, whatever), you probably would be spending lots of time at your dealer (which I can say about a lot of RVs these days) and be pretty disappointed.

We had a great time on the trip. The Ekko performed well. It has great power with the twin turbo ecoboost and even pulling a 14ft cargo trailer we moved right along (even I70 Eisenhower). I will say you WILL NOT get good gas mileage. It rates right down there with what our V10 got (around 8) on hilly stuff and 10-12 with a wind pushing. When traversing I80 in WY we were in 70mph winds (rig handled great) and I got 200mi out of a 30gal tank. Love the performance though (so its definitely a trade-off).

The solar works great. I can run my AC even for 7hrs on it. Without running the AC I can run my 110v StarLink, computer, and 12v stuff for 2-3 days. The 3 Ekko Solar panels alone of course cannot keep up with loads like that, so the Aux alternator charges things back up pretty fast as you move down the road or just run at idle. I did not get the generator option, but have used a portable carried in the trailer for recharge also.

Bathroom shower worked well (even for a not small guy). It is kindof a unique arrangement. 50gal of water (Fresh/Gray) worked well for this small rig. The cassette toilet is not a big deal to me (know it is for some). Pro's/Con's to it. We can dump anywhere there is a toilet available (it holds 5gal and has handle and wheels). Pretty easy process (and yes of course it does smell).

As with any smaller class rig, the desire is to be nimble and be able to go wherever you need to on the road. Without the trailer we can park the Ekko pretty much anywhere I could take my big Dodge 2500 Cummins RAM (yes I love my diesel to). I cannot speak to the AWD and off-road aspect yet, but I can say a lot have had them lifted a couple inches and have taken them to some pretty awesome places (true 4 season). So bottom line is we are happy with the Ekko so far. We are concerned with the QC and longevity like most RV owners and we hope to make it last. IMO (and EKKO definitely) the smaller class rigs are way over-priced, but as they say, you pay to play. EKKO cost was way more than our Newmar (most class b's and these small c's all cost way more than IMO they should).