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05-19-2019, 12:47 PM
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#15
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Senior Member
Entegra Owners Club
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bayfield, Ontario
Posts: 5,456
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdauto
It appeared as though you were responding to me and stating that my choice of battery was poor and not true deep cycle.
I simply explained what we had and specs,which really are pretty good. We could debate the minutiae for days but in the end there are minor differences and at that, only on paper. I can not find the brand you mentioned anywhere locally. Northstars I linked are branded under different names.
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No where did I say that your batteries were not “true deep cycle”. Some retailers of Lifeline batteries offer free shipping so a local source would not be necessary.
Unless you have two manufacturers batteries side by side to compare one to the other in real world conditions all anyone has is what is on paper from the manufacturers spec sheet. To say that for the original poster a 21% increase in capacity from Lifelines over two Northstar AGM batteries and at a significant cost savings is “minor differences” is absurd.
__________________
Don & Gerri
2014 Entegra Anthem 44B
2014 Honda CRV Touring
1300W Solar, 1200AH LiFePO4 FMCA F443497
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05-19-2019, 01:38 PM
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#16
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 3,026
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OP, you’re on the happy trail with your choice of the GC2 batteries. You should be able to find 2 in the 200ah range for $125-160/ea. No need to spend $350/ea on something ill suited for the task. If you’re up for that type of expenditure it’s time to look at lithium.
The discharge percentages are not magic numbers. There are charts that demonstrate the life expectancy of a battery based on controlled laboratory testing. In less controlled environments those results may differ. LA/AGM batteries often suffer an early and unexpected demise. They can be quite fickle. This is evidenced by the number of threads on the topic.
You’ve expressed a need for more capacity. That will be provided by your choice of the proper batteries. The ones you are replacing were not an ideal choice for the application.
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05-19-2019, 03:09 PM
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#17
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Senior Member
Entegra Owners Club
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bayfield, Ontario
Posts: 5,456
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RVPioneer
OP, you’re on the happy trail with your choice of the GC2 batteries. You should be able to find 2 in the 200ah range for $125-160/ea. No need to spend $350/ea on something ill suited for the task. If you’re up for that type of expenditure it’s time to look at lithium.
The discharge percentages are not magic numbers. There are charts that demonstrate the life expectancy of a battery based on controlled laboratory testing. In less controlled environments those results may differ. LA/AGM batteries often suffer an early and unexpected demise. They can be quite fickle. This is evidenced by the number of threads on the topic.
You’ve expressed a need for more capacity. That will be provided by your choice of the proper batteries. The ones you are replacing were not an ideal choice for the application.
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Agreed, two flooded GC2’s from somewhere like Costco or Sam’s Club would be ideal in terms of cost and performance.
__________________
Don & Gerri
2014 Entegra Anthem 44B
2014 Honda CRV Touring
1300W Solar, 1200AH LiFePO4 FMCA F443497
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05-19-2019, 06:43 PM
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#18
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Senior Member
National RV Owners Club Freightliner Owners Club
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Rice Lake, Wisconsin
Posts: 790
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Just bought 4--235AH at 20 hour rate, $117 each. Batteries Plus
Duracell Ultra Battery for Deep Cycle 6V RV
__________________
2003 National Tradewinds LTC 7374 FL XC-Chassis IFS, Steer Safe, 8.3 ISC 350 Cummins, 3000MH Allison, 2023 Equinox, Blue Ox Tow-Bar, Brake Master Air Over Hyd
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05-19-2019, 07:40 PM
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#19
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Registered User
Ford Super Duty Owner
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: NW Ohio
Posts: 7,114
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Quote:
Just bought 4--235AH at 20 hour rate, $117 each. Batteries Plus
Duracell Ultra Battery for Deep Cycle 6V RV
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These are the ones that I've been looking at..
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05-21-2019, 01:30 PM
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#20
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,434
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Didn't read all that. From experience and research I can say that it's likely the pair of 12v RV/marine batteries offer about 60 usable amp hours. Might be a bit more but not much.
The pair of golf cart batteries offer about 110 usable amp hours
For the record, two 12v drop-in lithium batteries, Battle Born for instance, would give you 200 usable amp hours but at probably five times the price.
Those marine batteries, by the way, are not true deep cycle batteries. They are a hybrid battery that work just fine for occasional weekend campers or folks that spend most of their time hooked up to shore power. However, if you dry camp, boondock, whatever much, they will fail and sooner rather than later. They aren't made for deep cycling repeatedly.
Golf cart batteries are made for repeated deep discharges (like in golf carts). They will last longer in that role. For the modest price difference, there's no reason not to pick the golf cart batteries over the marine batteries.
__________________
2018 Newmar Bay Star 3113 - "Chewie"
2014 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon - "Battle Born"
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05-21-2019, 02:50 PM
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#21
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 35,349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan McMartin
Didn't read all that. From experience and research I can say that it's likely the pair of 12v RV/marine batteries offer about 60 usable amp hours. Might be a bit more but not much.
The pair of golf cart batteries offer about 110 usable amp hours
For the record, two 12v drop-in lithium batteries, Battle Born for instance, would give you 200 usable amp hours but at probably five times the price.
Those marine batteries, by the way, are not true deep cycle batteries. They are a hybrid battery that work just fine for occasional weekend campers or folks that spend most of their time hooked up to shore power. However, if you dry camp, boondock, whatever much, they will fail and sooner rather than later. They aren't made for deep cycling repeatedly.
Golf cart batteries are made for repeated deep discharges (like in golf carts). They will last longer in that role. For the modest price difference, there's no reason not to pick the golf cart batteries over the marine batteries.
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I looked all over my led acid batteries and couldn't find the " Usable AH spec. ".
I go by the batteries rated AH spec. 80% of that can be safely used. 100% if real carefull. Same with Lithiums, you can easily use 80% and they will shut down if much more below that.
Running them down below 50% gets you shorter cycle life but its not damaging them.
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05-21-2019, 05:59 PM
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#22
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Senior Member
National RV Owners Club Freightliner Owners Club
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Rice Lake, Wisconsin
Posts: 790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waiter21
These are the ones that I've been looking at..
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If you purchase them, Check them when you pick them up, They have a new batch of them in that are black rather than gray and say right on them 232 amp@ 20 hrs, rather than 235. And of coarse there trying to pass them off for 235's! "Oh you will never notice the Difference" "yes but my wallet will?
__________________
2003 National Tradewinds LTC 7374 FL XC-Chassis IFS, Steer Safe, 8.3 ISC 350 Cummins, 3000MH Allison, 2023 Equinox, Blue Ox Tow-Bar, Brake Master Air Over Hyd
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05-21-2019, 06:31 PM
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#23
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,299
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215AH at 20 hour rate
__________________
Retired. 31 year of automotive engineering for one of the Detroit 3, specializing in Powertrain Control Systems.
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05-21-2019, 08:29 PM
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#24
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 3,026
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twinboat
I looked all over my led acid batteries and couldn't find the " Usable AH spec. ".
I go by the batteries rated AH spec. 80% of that can be safely used. 100% if real carefull. Same with Lithiums, you can easily use 80% and they will shut down if much more below that.
Running them down below 50% gets you shorter cycle life but its not damaging them.
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What causes the “shorter cycle life” if it isn’t damage?
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05-21-2019, 09:15 PM
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#25
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Senior Member
Winnebago Owners Club Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 2,479
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RVPioneer
What causes the “shorter cycle life” if it isn’t damage?
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Any amount of usage including no usage results in degradation. So does a less than perfect charge profile, and the passage of time. So use 'em up, they're all going to die of something anyway.
Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM
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05-21-2019, 09:20 PM
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#26
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 35,349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RVPioneer
What causes the “shorter cycle life” if it isn’t damage?
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Deep cycle batteries have a finite number of cycles.
Every time you discharge your battery you use some of that cycle life.
As an example, if you discharge them 25%, every time, you can expect about 1500+ cycles.
Go down to 50% and expect about 1000 cycles.
Discharge them 80% and you can expect about 500 cycles.
There is a little give and take between brands but that's how they work.
So if you have the room for 8 batteries, you spend more $ building your bank and it will last a long time, OR spend half as much $ for 4 batteries and replace them in 1/2 the time. Six of one, 1/2 dozen of the other.
Here is a DOD chart from the linked website. The left column is the number of cycles and the bottom row is the DOD, ( Depth Of Discharge ). I marked about 25%, 50%, and 80%.
https://www.solar-electric.com/learn...ttery-faq.html
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05-21-2019, 09:39 PM
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#27
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Lansing MI
Posts: 2,821
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If you plan on keeping the coach lithium will likely be your low cost option long term. The Battle Born batteries have a 10 year warranty and somewhere around 5,000 charge/discharge cycles in them. You just can't charge them if they're below freezing. Your money, your choice, but it's something I would think about.
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05-21-2019, 10:13 PM
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#28
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 3,026
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twinboat
Deep cycle batteries have a finite number of cycles.
Every time you discharge your battery you use some of that cycle life.
As an example, if you discharge them 25%, every time, you can expect about 1500+ cycles.
Go down to 50% and expect about 1000 cycles.
Discharge them 80% and you can expect about 500 cycles.
There is a little give and take between brands but that's how they work.
So if you have the room for 8 batteries, you spend more $ building your bank and it will last a long time, OR spend half as much $ for 4 batteries and replace them in 1/2 the time. Six of one, 1/2 dozen of the other.
Here is a DOD chart from the linked website. The left column is the number of cycles and the bottom row is the DOD, ( Depth Of Discharge ). I marked about 25%, 50%, and 80%.
https://www.solar-electric.com/learn...ttery-faq.html
Attachment 246810
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I’m familiar with that data. For the sake of simplicity, let’s say we have a 100ah battery. We can extract 80ah 500 times by taking it to 80% DOD, for a lifetime total of 40,000ah. Or, we can extract 50ah 1000 times by taking it to 50% DOD, for a lifetime total of 50,000ah. That’s a 25% increase using the typical manufacturers 50% DOD recommendation. There is no advantage is discharging the battery to only 25% DOD.
With the amount of abuse RV owners impart on batteries I don’t believe it is beneficial to recommend they practice a protocol that knowingly shortens the life of a battery.
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