Delay in power transfer

[FlyingDiver]

I don't think you'll be able to see this problem with a meter. The voltage outage is too short. You would need a recording oscilloscope to see it.

I still think that the problem is that when the generator is in the process of shutting down, the output voltage drops slower than the inverter recognizes as an outage. So it goes low (under 100V?) and the sat receiver reboots, then (within miliseconds) it goes even lower (80V?) and the inverter sees that as an outage and kicks in. But it's too late for the sat receiver.

As I said before, the solution is to turn off the breaker feeding the inverter before shutting down the generator. Just remember to turn it back on again after shore power is connected or the generator is re-started.

I have experienced the exact same problem, and that is how I deal with it.

[cowrv39]

Rossi6998,
iI decided to look into your system even deeper. I have found your issue and your drop out is as designed. First here is the documentation that I found on the vendors web site.

http://gpelectric.com/files/gpelectr...ide2011_vB.pdf

http://gpelectric.com/files/gpelectr...SW1500-600.pdf

http://gpelectric.com/files/gpelectr...h_GP-TS_vC.pdf

If you look at the transfer switch wiring diagram on page 4 of the PDF file you will see how the weekender package that you have is interconnected. Your inverter output has two outlets. There is a plug from the transfers switch which connects to the inverter. The plug is wired to the normally closed contacts of the 30 amp power relay in the transfer switch housing. The AC load panel is connected to the common contacts of the relay. The relay is DPDT relay. It just switches the hot and neutral wires of the AC. So with no AC and you turn on the inverter, it supplies AC to the AC panel ie your satellite receiver. When the generator or shore power is available the 30 amp relay is energized. The NO contacts are now closed and AC power is connected to the AC panel which is providing power to your satellite receiver. Also the same contacts provide power to your battery charger. When you lose shore power or the generator. The relay switches back to the inverter. Its this drop out that your having. Also the inverter is still providing power as long as the on/off switch is in the on position. Also note that the inverter AC sine wave is not synchronized with the incoming AC from the generator.

So the power transfer switch works as designed.

Here is a solution to fix your problem. The inverter has an available outlet that can be used to plug in your TV, sat receiver, dvd, etc. You have about 12.5 amps AC available total. If I remember correctly in my last RV the larger loads where wired to the AC panel and then I had another panel which was wired to the inverter all the time. I had outlets that were hot always so the kids could plug in there electronics.

I hope this discussion and solution helps others understand how there AC power in the rv/campers actually works.

-Brian

[Dr4Film]

I think Flying Driver has a better solution to his problem.

Just my opinion.

Dr4Film ----- Richard

[cowrv39]

Dr4film,
Look at the diagram for the transfer switch. It's a switch. Off/on. When no shore power or generator the inverter feeds the power panel. Everything is happy. When the shore power or generator is a source the transfer switch is energized and the AC panel is now being feed by the shore power or generator. Turn the shore power of and the transfer switch relay opens and switches to the inverter. Two different power sources the inverter is bypassed when on shore power or generator. This is working as designed. As an engineer I would of designed the same way but split t,he AC panel into two panels. Critical and non critical. The critical one is always hot. It's always being feed by the inverter when the on/off switch is on. The non critical load is only available when the shore power or generator is available. The diagram shows everything clearly. Some times design engineers don't think out the use cases clearly. The inverter is always connected to the battery. Always on power unless the batteries are low. The original OP says he also has a 30 amp solar charger. It came withe the weekend kit. So all the OP needs to do is plug his critical load into the second outlet. Instant UPS. The OP can either hard wire or run an extension cord. This is a cheap solution.
I am just trying to explain the design.

-Brian

[FlyingDiver]

Originally Posted by cowrv39

Dr4film,
Look at the diagram for the transfer switch. It's a switch. Off/on. When no shore power or generator the inverter feeds the power panel. Everything is happy. When the shore power or generator is a source the transfer switch is energized and the AC panel is now being feed by the shore power or generator. Turn the shore power of and the transfer switch relay opens and switches to the inverter. Two different power sources the inverter is bypassed when on shore power or generator. This is working as designed. As an engineer I would of designed the same way but split t,he AC panel into two panels. Critical and non critical. The critical one is always hot. It's always being feed by the inverter when the on/off switch is on. The non critical load is only available when the shore power or generator is available. The diagram shows everything clearly. Some times design engineers don't think out the use cases clearly. The inverter is always connected to the battery. Always on power unless the batteries are low. The original OP says he also has a 30 amp solar charger. It came withe the weekend kit. So all the OP needs to do is plug his critical load into the second outlet. Instant UPS. The OP can either hard wire or run an extension cord. This is a cheap solution.
I am just trying to explain the design.

-Brian

You're getting hung up on the transfer switch being something special. That diagram is essentially the same as the internal transfer switch built into all higher-end inverters. They just show it as separate components. In my Magnum inverter, the inverter, transfer switch, and charger are all in the same box, wired essentially the same.

What you haven't explained is why the load isn't going BACK to the inverter when the generator shuts off. That diagram doesn't actually show what power is tripping the relay to go from NO to NC and back. In reality, it's ANY power on the Shore Power/Generator line. If there's power there, the NO contacts are connected to the output line (to the AC Panel). If there isn't, the NC contacts (from the Inverter) are connected.

IF the system was working exactly as intended, then the relay would close (switching to inverter) before the voltage from the generator dropped low enough for the DVR to shut down. But it doesn't.

With this setup, the owner might not be able to shut off the power to the transfer switch before turning off the generator, as it appears that there's no panel breaker there. I'm not sure where the breakers are in this setup. The output breakers on the generator would do as well, if it's easily accessible.

[Pusherman]

Seems to me this problem can be solved quite simply. What's needed is an UN-interrupted power supply (UPS) like is found on many computer servers to protect against power outages.

There are smaller ones available under 1000 watts (you probably need about 100 watts) for under $100. Looks like the VIP211K takes about 25 watts max.

Plug the UPS in-line with the satellite receiver, and it should not drop out. No muss, no fuss. No switching breakers. No worries on transfer switch lag times.

[John Hilley]

A UPS wouldn't be a good solution for various reasons. All that has to be done is to change the connection to the transfer switch coil from the shore power/generator to the inverter. When the inverter is turned on, it pulls in the contacts changing the power source from shore power/generator to inverter. Turn the inverter off and the transfer switch reverts back to shore power/generator. All you need to do is leave the inverter on when you watch TV. When you start the generator, it powers the non inverter powered circuits without affecting the circuits on inverter power.

[BFlinn181]

Originally Posted by Pusherman

Seems to me this problem can be solved quite simply. What's needed is an UN-interrupted power supply (UPS) like is found on many computer servers to protect against power outages.

Plug the UPS in-line with the satellite receiver, and it should not drop out. No muss, no fuss. No switching breakers. No worries on transfer switch lag times.

Originally Posted by John Hilley

A UPS wouldn't be a good solution for various reasons.

Maybe I'm missing something, but WHY wouldn't a UPS "be a good solution for various reasons."?? Seems simpler than rewiring. Remember, to shut off the generator, you shut down the generator engine and it spins down. The transfer switch is always going to delay until the voltage drops off enough to trigger the switch. That interruption has proven long enough to reboot the satellite receiver, thus a UPS would bridge the gap.

I'd be curious to know your 'various reasons.' As I suggested, wire the inverter and UPS together, you wouldn't leave one on without the other, or, as Pusherman suggested, the UPS could go in the cabinet with the Sat Rec. and shut off UPS and Sat Rec. at the same time.

[Dr4Film]

A UPS was suggested early in this thread but post #5 by the OP states why it's not a solution for him.

Dr4Film ----- Richard

[BFlinn181]

Originally Posted by Dr4Film

A UPS was suggested early in this thread but post #5 by the OP states why it's not a solution for him.

Dr4Film ----- Richard

Then after further suggestions about a work-a-round for the UPS in post #7, the OP agreed a UPS could work in post #12.

[John Hilley]

Depending on the inverter, it may or may not like it as a power source. There are two types of UPS, standby and on line. It will also be less efficient and be bulky.

[Dr4Film]

Bob,

You're correct. Me bad.

To me that would be the simplest thing to do but it's not my RV or my problem.

Dr4Film ----- Richard

[cowrv39]

The magnum series inverters are a far superior product. That product can synchronize with the incoming AC sine wave and provide transparent switchover in less that 16 milliseconds. Let's not go there but focus on the low end product.

Yes I am hung up on the relay. The relay only energizes when there is shore power or generator. I didn't see a delay circuit to wait for the shore power or generator to come up to speed. Other transfer switch wait for up to 15 sec. So understand this when on shore power or generator the AC power is passed directly to the AC panel. The inverter output is disconnected. When shore power or generator is disconnected the relay contacts I open and the inverter is supply power. AC is a sine wave. There is no way to synchronize the two in this design. The relay opens and what ever part of the phase of the sine wave happens in that moment is being supplied. So the load has to start up again. I can't explain this any clearer. Anytime power is interrupted the DC capacitors on the load side of a device might be able to sustain power for a fraction of a second. But now a days they make power supplies so cheap that the extra capacitors are not designed in. So there is no residue voltage.

I standby my previous posts. I can call the manufacture tech support but the diagram they provide is clear.

-Brian

[Rossi6998]

Hi Brian,

Thanks for the input. When I was asking the RV service advisor about the system, I do believe he said the inverter would be in bypass mode when the generator was on.

I contacted the maker of my solar system today (GoPower/Carmanah) and spoke to one of their techs. He said there will be a very slight delay as the transfer switch determines the generator is shutting down and the need to switch to the battery for power. He said this is done to prevent backload. He said although the delay is very slight, it must be enough of a delay to cause my DirecTV receiver to reboot.

Makes sense to me, but what do I know... Anyway, I am starting to like the UPS ideal more and more. For the amount of time I will be dry camping (maybe 5% of the time), the UPS will work for me.