Future of Boondocking?

[theoldwizard]

Originally Posted by RVPioneer

What’s the cost of the 1000kwh battery?

Ten 100Ah LiFePO4 (1000 Ah) would cost about $1,000. Few RV would have space for 10 batteries.

Originally Posted by RVPioneer

An all electric coach with 2-3 A/C’s, 4 TV’s, induction cook top, microwave, heat, hot water, residential refrigerator, etc is a disaster for boondocking.

I would like to see such a coach, even with propane, boondock ! It would need a 7-8kW generator running 24 hrs/day. (Onan QD 8000) How much fuel would that be ? (half load, 0.5 gallons/hour)

Originally Posted by RVPioneer

Will this EV coach have an onboard generator?

Probably. You can't trust the sun to be out full strength every day.

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by theoldwizard

Ten 100Ah LiFePO4 (1000 Ah) would cost about $1,000. Few RV would have space for 10 batteries.

Thats only what 12kwh: 12v * 1000ah

The Tesla Semi is going to be around 1 megawatt hour, the current cost (not price) is around $160 per kwh so the cost on a 1000kwh battery is $160,000. Tesla probably wont release the semi until the cost hits their target of $100 kwh. This would also be about a 10,000 pound battery based on the weight of a 100kwh Tesla pack.

Solar is at best around 90w per sq ft in radiation, solar panels are currently at best around 20% efficient. A 40ft RV has about 300 sqft of roof. So 29,000 watts of solar energy converts to 5,800 watts best case at noon no shade with a completely covered roof. You never get that because of the suns angle then you have shade from trees etc.

You might be able to run a single a/c and do some charging of the pack or run two a/c's and do no charging, but you will want shade if its hot.

Tesla pack could run the a/c for a month 24/7 if fully charged, but you could boondock for a couple weeks with solar probably and still run a/c and still have power left over to get back to charging station if you where really careful but you will be running a deficit.

I think it will happen but it a decade or two out before battery cost comes down enough. Still waiting to see if Tesla can make the semi work and what the cost/weight of its battery will be.

[RVPioneer]

Originally Posted by CBDunkerson

Don't we already have self sufficient off-grid residences?

...and yes, that is exactly what I am hoping for. RVs that seldom or never require 'hookups' to external electrical, water, and/or sewage lines. You only need to visit civilization to pick up food and get rid of garbage.

Some of the top priorities in designing and building an off grid house are:

Minimized electrical demand
Solar with battery back up
Well
Septic system
Back up generator (usually propane)
Heat source (wood burning stove or geothermal, which is costly and requires electricity)
Water catchment and filtration
Design and construction methods
Location (Hawaii at 2000’, no heat, no air, no insulation, good sun)

An off grid home is not connected to the power grid, but it is hooked up to many external systems.

Given the choice between a six figure, 10,000lb battery or my current coach, which was less than the batteries, I’ll go with the latter. After 7-10 days it will be necessary to dump and fill and probably time to explore a new location.

[Pyropete]

Better Batteries hold more, and easier to charge, and last longer, and internet everywhere (using phone as your hub/router), Better solar panels. They are actually getting better every year. The ones I bought 5 years ago are not even close to being as efficient as the ones out today. I guess thank the [Mod Edit] throwing money at solar energy for that, even though they are useless for everything else.

[Pyropete]

Originally Posted by theoldwizard

Ten 100Ah LiFePO4 (1000 Ah) would cost about $1,000. Few RV would have space for 10 batteries.


I would like to see such a coach, even with propane, boondock ! It would need a 7-8kW generator running 24 hrs/day. (Onan QD 8000) How much fuel would that be ? (half load, 0.5 gallons/hour)


Probably. You can't trust the sun to be out full strength every day.

Kind of would defeat the purpose getting out to nature but having that generator constantly tell them with it's noise that they are cheating (I know it's not cheating but when it comes to boondocking I would like to get as much energy as I can from solar/wind and use the generator only in extreme circumstances.)

[Pyropete]

Originally Posted by radar

Love the OP’s open minded approach to future possibilities. Kinda cool. Yagottafigur. 20 years ago nobody would have thought that bthere would be a1000 cars a day hitting North American roads without gas tanks. . EV technology has come a long way in 10 years. I’m sure in 10 years there will be at least some development in EVRV’s. It sure would improve the driving experience.

Internet too! I was camping back in 2010 (last time before grandpa died) and we had a TV (barely) and my phone had no signal, no internet, and only power sparingly. I have been back to tent camp in the same area after grandfather died and I get LTE coverage there so I would be able to hotspot a laptop or desktop and get good speeds. I do that when the internet at home is down (stupid Comcast). But yah, 10 years ago battery technology was in its infancy, and no internet! Now we get both! In 10 years there will probably be no dead zone at all for cell service, and batteries will be a lot cheaper.

[RVPioneer]

Originally Posted by Pyropete

Kind of would defeat the purpose getting out to nature but having that generator constantly tell them with it's noise that they are cheating (I know it's not cheating but when it comes to boondocking I would like to get as much energy as I can from solar/wind and use the generator only in extreme circumstances.)

There are those who boondock and run the generator because it is less expensive that installing solar.

Perhaps the future of boondocking will be “generator” and “no generator” areas.

[Wewander]

I love all those features and I want to be on the list for the first one out with all those features at the right price. How about wind power as another option that could come standard. It would be nice to have a back up for the solar that isn't noisy and doesn't require fossil fuels. It could generate power as we drive down the road.

[CBDunkerson]

Solar & batteries: Most of the concerns raised focus on current limitations while I'm specifically pondering the future. IF the Tesla semi really comes out with ~500 miles range (for an 80,000 load) at ~2 kWh per mile for ~$180,000 (cost of entire truck) within the next two years then a similar battery at <$100,000 cost in seven years seems plausible. Likewise, if the 34% efficient thin film panels Toyota is testing hold up it doesn't seem unreasonable that they could be available for sale in seven years. The fact that they are thin film also means you don't have just the roof area available... you could roughly double the power generated (even while moving) by covering the sides or roughly triple it (when stationary) by including solar covered pull out awnings (which can be better angled towards the Sun).

Heating & cooling: One of the major benefits of living in a vehicle is that you can move when the weather gets nasty. That said, I don't have A/C in my current home and only run the heat enough to keep the pipes from freezing (I like the cold)... so I wasn't concerned about either of these factors at all. The heating/cooling in the vehicle cab will probably be more than I ever need. Even so, I think the future solar and battery specs described above could cover environment controls for the temperature challenged unless they were summering in Death Valley and wintering in Alaska.

Grey water: There are lots of examples on the internet (e.g. at Burning Man) of people setting up drip evaporation methods for grey water. I'll go with something like that if need be, but you'd think manufacturers would build it right in. A trough with a curved lense or mirror to focus sunlight or even induction heating off the vehicle power supply and you'd be able to evaporate away even a full tank over the course of a day or two. Then you'd just need to put a strainer on it to catch the solids and throw those in the garbage when you're done.

Wind power: Any power generated while driving would be more than offset by the power lost due to increased wind resistance... otherwise you'd have invented a perpetual motion machine. Even while stationary, wind power is unlikely to be much help on a vehicle because you need really tall towers with very large blades to generate significant electricity.

Cost: Yes, it will be a lot more than seven years before the kind of specs described are available at low cost. However, so long as the vehicle comes in at $500,000 or less I'd be ok with it. Obviously that is on the high end, but there are plenty of RVs that cost more than that now... with much less autonomy / boondocking potential.

[Phil G.]

Here's just my 2 cents worth random comments after reading this interesting discussion thread:

1. Solar panels are way too inefficient. I've read that about the best attained in labs so far under controlled conditions and using exotic materials is 45-50%. What superb solar power for RVs requires is probably in the range of 70% on up.

2. Generators "can" be made that are very, very quiet. I've stood beside large ones enclosed in cabinets at public events that I could hardly hear when standing right next to them. I once stood beside a Class A RV with it's generator running, and it was literally whisper quiet ... so a quiet RV generator installation is possible.

3. The stored energy per cubic foot of diesel, gasoline, and propane is hard to beat - that's why they're so widely used in modern civilization. It's too bad that burning them produces so much CO2.

4. I believe that diesel fuel has the highest energy content per cubic foot of the three fuels that I mentioned above. This means that probably the "best way" to heat an RV is by circulating hot water through pipes in the floor using water heated by a diesel powered burner. In fact, the Earthroamer XV-HD expedition vehicle and certain Class A motorhomes use that very method.

5. The same as above applies for cooking in an RV -> use a diesel cooktop.

6. Keeping an RV cool is a real challenge for extended hot weather boondocking. The ultimate solution might be a highly efficient flexible solar panel that is stored on a roller mounted off the frame on the back of the RV. Just pull and unroll it out (it would have to be several feet long and 4-5 feet wide, at least), laying it out on the ground - extending as far back from the RV as necessary so as to unroll it's entire length. This huge solar area would of course still require a generous battery bank and a large inverter - unless low voltage DC powered air conditoners were used.

7. Dealing with waste for long camping periods probably implies composting toilets - that are well engineered and properly installed and ventilated.

8. As for water ... they are now experimenting in third world countries with sourcing of drinking water from the air using high tech equipment (that is more productive than the good old method of evaporation off flat surfaces).

9. Now as for food ... a company in Europe has demonstrated the feasibilty of creating protein from the air.

However IMHO, the "real challenge" is incorporating future methods such as these in as small as possible RVs that still offer all the comforts of home but in a small vehicle. This is because "real boondocking" requires being able to get way out there - sometimes on roads too rough for big rigs.

Currently as far as I can determine, state-of-the-art self-sufficient mobile living is only being attained in high end expedition vehicles and in boats.

[CBDunkerson]

Here are two accounts of running A/C off RV solar and batteries with existing technology.

Thus, it is barely within the realm of possibility right now. With the future specs I've been talking about (e.g. ~5x current solar and ~100x current battery) and the proper inverters and other equipment it seems entirely possible.

Also, many 'adventure vehicle' builds seem to rely on battery and solar for most or all of the internal electrical needs. Electrical usage of an average full sized house in the US is only ~30 kWh per day. Smaller and generally more efficient RV electrical usage should seldom hit 10 kWh per day. Thus, I think people are seriously underestimating the ability to run the 'house' part of an RV off solar and battery. Maybe you need to plug in or run a generator from time to time, but even a 20 kWh battery and 2 kW of solar should be enough to cover internal electronics most of the time. The bigger battery that would go along with the vehicle itself being electric makes the electricity needed for internal devices almost negligible by comparison.

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by CBDunkerson

Solar & batteries: Most of the concerns raised focus on current limitations while I'm specifically pondering the future. IF the Tesla semi really comes out with ~500 miles range (for an 80,000 load) at ~2 kWh per mile for ~$180,000 (cost of entire truck) within the next two years then a similar battery at <$100,000 cost in seven years seems plausible. Likewise, if the 34% efficient thin film panels Toyota is testing hold up it doesn't seem unreasonable that they could be available for sale in seven years. The fact that they are thin film also means you don't have just the roof area available... you could roughly double the power generated (even while moving) by covering the sides or roughly triple it (when stationary) by including solar covered pull out awnings (which can be better angled towards the Sun).

34% efficient panels have been around for some time Toyota is not using a new type of panel just the really expensive, as in only worth it for spacecraft multijunction gallium arsenide panels, they just tried to put some on a car to see how much power they could capture.

I do believe RV's will go electric I am just generally skeptical of the pace being suggest. Most people see some news article pop up and think better batteries and panels are going to come out next year like a new iPhone. Doesn't help when Musk tells you the semi will be out next year (which would have been this year) cheaper than diesel then it inevitably gets delayed, that's pretty much standard operating procedure for Tesla, continually over promise under deliver, but they are making progress, just hate their style.

Lithium batteries and GaAs panels have been around for decades the problem is making them at a reasonable cost. Lithium batteries are steadily coming down, multi junction panels well we will see, Silicon is just so much cheaper and easier.

[Pyropete]

Originally Posted by RVPioneer

There are those who boondock and run the generator because it is less expensive that installing solar.

Perhaps the future of boondocking will be “generator” and “no generator” areas.

I wouldn't want to restrict people that cannot afford solar. We are all boondockers/future boondockers and we should all get along at least on a courteous level. I wouldn't say anything if someone had used a generator.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, Solar and batteries are getting cheaper so I hope it will become affordable for all.

[RVPioneer]

Originally Posted by Pyropete

I wouldn't want to restrict people that cannot afford solar. We are all boondockers/future boondockers and we should all get along at least on a courteous level. I wouldn't say anything if someone had used a generator.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, Solar and batteries are getting cheaper so I hope it will become affordable for all.

I’d consider it more separating than restricting. We willingly agree to separate ourselves in the form of 55+ year old communities. It would be quite simple to add a few signs on BLM land specifying what activities are permitted in certain areas. It would certainly be easier than developing an RV that can create its own source of water and dispose of its waste for months on end.

The topic being “The future of boondocking” I would anticipate separating those who want or need to run a generator from those who are prepared to camp without using a generator. I could also see a fee system instituted in order to have access to BLM land.

The technology exists and many owners have modified their coaches to boondock for a week or more. The limiting factor is almost always tank capacity. There is no need to install a 1000kwh battery at any cost.

The discussion of an EV motorhome may best be suited for a separate thread. There have been a few, and as would be expected, they typically spiral into the gas v diesel or Ford V Chevy realm.