PD9260CB 60AMP vs WFCO8955MBA 55 AMP test

[victor D]

Hi everyone, so this is my first post. I have been reading the forums for a while now. First off, I just want to say how much I appreciate people spending the time and energy posting info as I have learned so much and translated into some pretty great camping experiences.

So today, I wanted to post the results of some testing I have done after not being able to find this info on the forums. I've been able to find bits and pieces however never anything comprehensive when trying to figure out if switching converters was worth the cost and what types of charging currents I should expect.

Thing is, electrical systems in the RV/TT world are complex. So many variables. I get it. However, I wanted to take some time and post this as I'm sure there are other folks that are in the same conundrum and hopefully my post will help. Obv most situations are different but based on my reading, a lot of folks have the same factory stuff as my 24 ft cruiser TT does.

First off, here is our camping situation as this should provide a backdrop to why charging is so important for us.

We only go dry camping. Here in British Columbia, the plug in sites are mostly beside a highway and rarely in a remote/quiet area near a lake. And if you do find one near a lake, it can cost up to $100/night to stay there. So we camp in what's called provincial campgrounds(similar to State parks). Generally we try to get a spot near the lake.

We have three young kids so there are 5 of us in our travel trailer.
We have a 2021 24ft cruiser Travel trailer bunk house. I've updated it with 2 6v 225 AH interstate deep cycles and have a 180 watt roof top solar panel. I also have a 400 W inverter and bring a honda eu3000is along to run our AC during generator time.

Side bar, if I could do it again, I would not buy the Honda. Last summer it could not handle the current surge on our 13,500 BTU Dometic AC in the heat. It would kickoff every time. The only way I was able to get it to work was by turning off every single breaker switch in the trailer and turning up the thermostat to be a couple degrees below the interior of the trailer(that was close to 40 degrees last summer). For this year, purchased the soft start AC unit so I should not have this issue. However if I could do it again, I would have purchased a 700 dollar Firman from Costco rather than be $3.5K in to the Honda. But i digress....

So other than the AC issues, the other issue we had last year was that the generator would not charge the battery that well(in BC we have 4 hours per day of generator time - 2 in the morning and 2 at dinner).
So i purchased a Victron 500 Amp Shunt(blue tooth only version) and started monitoring. I noticed that my stock WFCO converter was only putting in 15Amps(tops) to 8 amps into the battery during generator charging time.

I found that with our trailer usage(lights, water pump, and night time fan to keep kids cool on the inverter), we're using approx 70-80 amps each 24 hours. The WFCO was charging about 35 amps over the 4 hour of generator time. So this wasn't working(we camp in shady spots often so solar panel charging is minimal).

After doing loads of reading this spring, I bought the PD9260 60 amp Converter hoping for faster charging rates.

I first did some charge tests with the WFCO and then installed the PD. Note, I have factory installed 6 gauge wire on a 25 ft run(converter is in center of trailer by the fridge). So I wasn't sure how much this will impact from a voltage drop perspective. I also had some loose connection issues with my stock wiring so i'm sure the factory connections along the route back to the batteries will also have a role in voltage drop.

So for the test, I drained the batteries and then charged for 4 hours with both converters to see how much current I get back into the batteries over 4 hours at home:

WFCO Charger: Total Amps Drained at start: (91.7) amps, SOC=61%, V = 12.1V.
After 2 hours: Total Amps Drained:(71.2), SOC 70%, V=13.33V, Current=10.18A
AFter 3 hours: Total Amps Drained (61.5, SOC 75%, V 13.4V, Current = 9.26A
AFter 4 hours : Total Amps Drained (53.1), SOC 79%, V= 13.44V, Current = 7.76A
Total Current added to batteries after 4 hours charging: 38.6AH

PD Charger(I pressed the boost mode button on the wizard): Total Amps Drained at start: (102.8) amps, SOC = 56%. V=12.52(Sorry, i let the battery rest before taking the reading so that messed it up a bit)
After 2 hours: Total Amps Drained : (56.1), SOC=77%, V = 13.8, Current = 17.32
After 3 hours: Total Amps Drained: (41.6), SOC 82%, V = 13.88, Current = 13.4
AFter 4 hours: Total Amps Drained: (29.5), SOC 87%, V = 13.92, Current = 10.9 A
Total current added to batteries after 4 hours charging = 73.3AH

So as you can see, with the PD upgrade, I've almost doubled our charging on the 4 hour daily generator time. With Solar panel top up, we should be good this year.

Last point, as a third test, I connected the PD directly to my battery using a 2ft 4 gauge wire. When I hit the boost button, I was getting 14.24 V at the batteries and charging current was levelling off at the 28A range. Now, I don't recall what my specifics on the battery were however I obviously have voltage drop based on that V reading.

Maybe next year I will upgrade the wire, however, for now, I'm ok with the 75 Amps per day charging.

Hope this helps some!

[Dave Pelletier]

Thanks and interesting post. We have some similarities; namely:

- we are also from B.C. (Kelowna) and almost exclusively boondock in Forestry or Provincial sites.
- I have the same Generator
- we are using the same batteries ('cept I have 4)
- we both have solar (two 170w panels for me)
- we also have a 13.5k single AC unit
- I also use a Victron Smart Shunt to monitor

My trailer came with a PD4060K charger/converter with the Charge Wizard. I also bought the pendant to force it into boost mode for quick charges but I haven't tried using it yet......which is because I haven't needed to; with my 450AH's and 340W of solar, so far I've reached full charge by noon at the latest even under overcast conditions. The Shunt says we use about 50 amp hours in the "non solar charging hours". Haven't needed the Generator yet except when we ran the A/C at Mission raceway and at a friends acreage. I'm sure you remember last year's "heat dome"? ....well, we were camping in those temps and the Honda EU3000is ran the air conditioner flat out the entire time without a hickup....no issues with lights, pumps, fans, etc. Honestly, I think you have a problem with either your AC unit or your generator because our experience has been completely opposite and we're using the exact same stuff.... Heck, some people have run 13.5k AC's with 2400 yamahas or even 2200 Hondas without the softstart; your 3000 should have no issue. Mine doesn't.

If/when you want to upgrade your solar and battery capacity, I think you'll find that generator usage can be cut in half......or eliminated entirely (depending on conditions, of course.)

cheers,
Dave

[Vintage465]

I just upgraded the WFCO unit in my ORV with a P.D. 55amp retrofit unit. I have no numbers to share but I did one other upgrade in preparation for installing the P.D. I ran a #2 copper welding cable from the converter to the batteries to minimize voltage loss. If I did ever need to fire up the genny I'm thinking it would be for a shorter duration than the old set up for sure.

[twinboat]

All converter/chargers depend on battery voltage reading to go from bulk to absorb and then float charge.

With distance and undersized wires, the converter is seeing the voltage output at its terminals but not at the batteries.

Large cables or relocate the converter near the batteries is the fix.

[puttin]

Since you dry camp and your world is full of 12V I thought you might be interested in these people: https://www.loveyourrv.com/ He's a fellow countryman of yours and does a great deal of product reviews and testing. He has an electrical back round and is connected with some very good solar people as well.

[Nwcid]

Interesting for sure. I have never used my built in convert though.

One of the first upgrades I did was to install an inverter/charger as we need 120v while off grid. This kept my wire gauge large and my run very short between my battery and charger. Also it does not hurt that the inverter has a 125 amp charger.

As a boondocker having high charging while running the generator was a goal for us.

[victor D]

Thanks for the notes guys!

So I went back to the place I purchased the generator and they would not accept that something was wrong with the generator - they told me it was my shore cable that was the issue. I was a bit frustrated to say the least with that customer service experience.

The shore cable came with the trailer that we purchased in 2020 so I assume that is not the issue(but maybe it is?).

I then called a local RV repair shop and they told me it's very common for AC units to kickout geny's during start up surge. He also said he installs soft starts all the time for folks with 3000W genys.

So at the end of the day, it was pretty frustrating as a lot of folks swear by the honda, yet I was having a not so great experience. That being said, I did not consider an issue with the AC unit itself given it is brand new and barely used.

Lastly, when I turned on the AC here at home after installing the soft start, my 15 amp house outlet could handle the surge as well as running my honda on eco mode. So hopefully that won't give me any more issues this year. I will consider having someone take a peak at my AC unit as I'm no expert at these things.

We had an awesome lake site booked in Kelowna(Fintry) during the 42 degree heat dome. Unfortunately, we cancelled as we were worried about our 1.5 year old dealing with the heat. Last year was rough with the fires as well - let's hope to a nicer summer this year!

On the solar side of things. I've been thinking about getting another panel on our roof to hit 360 watts. I would love to add 2 more batteries to get 4 in total as well however I don't have much room in the front storage bay as we jam that pretty full with all our kids stuff/beach gear etc. Currently my two house batteries are on the tongue/frame part behind the propane bottles. I think eventually the plan is to get a 200AH lithium or even 300 however that also requires a converter change I understand..... decisions decisions.....

Thank you for the love your RV link - I've watched that guy before. Lots of good stuff. Thanks!

For the fella that mentioned he has a charger directly to his batteries to hit 120V. Do you disconnect or turn the breaker off to your main converter as I read on the forums that having two battery charging sources is not a good thing?

Also, have a question as I have not been able to figure this one out. Does running boost mode for 2 to 4 hours at say 14.4 V pumping in 30 to 40amp hours into deep cycles batteries risk damaging them?

Thanks again!

[Nwcid]

Originally Posted by victor D

Thanks for the notes guys!

For the fella that mentioned he has a charger directly to his batteries to hit 120V. Do you disconnect or turn the breaker off to your main converter as I read on the forums that having two battery charging sources is not a good thing?

My converter is not even hooked up to the batteries and the breaker is off.

I have an inverter/charger wired into one leg of my incoming power. If the converter was on, it would create a loop of trying to charge the batteries using the power from the batteries and that does not work.

With an inverter/charger when there is no incoming 120v, the inverter is used create 120v power from a 12v system. As long as I have battery power, and the inverter is on, I have 120v power to anything on the inverter circuit. In my case it is every thing on 1 leg, all my outlets, microwave and 1 A/C.

With an inverter/charger when there is incoming power (shore/generator) the charger provides charging to the batteries. In my case the charger is 125 amps.

When using an inverter or inverter/charger you want as short of 12v wiring runs as possible and of appropriate gauge. In my case I have a 3000 watt inverter with a 125 amp charger. This unit requires 4/0 gauge wire of less than 5' with a 400 amp fuse. Since my inverter/charger is mounted on top of my battery box my runs are less than 3'.

In my case my inverter is on all the time other than when it is in winter storage.

[Dave Pelletier]

Originally Posted by victor D

Thanks for the notes guys!

So I went back to the place I purchased the generator and they would not accept that something was wrong with the generator - they told me it was my shore cable that was the issue. I was a bit frustrated to say the least with that customer service experience.

The shore cable came with the trailer that we purchased in 2020 so I assume that is not the issue(but maybe it is?).

I then called a local RV repair shop and they told me it's very common for AC units to kickout geny's during start up surge. He also said he installs soft starts all the time for folks with 3000W genys.

So at the end of the day, it was pretty frustrating as a lot of folks swear by the honda, yet I was having a not so great experience. That being said, I did not consider an issue with the AC unit itself given it is brand new and barely used.

Lastly, when I turned on the AC here at home after installing the soft start, my 15 amp house outlet could handle the surge as well as running my honda on eco mode. So hopefully that won't give me any more issues this year. I will consider having someone take a peak at my AC unit as I'm no expert at these things.

We had an awesome lake site booked in Kelowna(Fintry) during the 42 degree heat dome. Unfortunately, we cancelled as we were worried about our 1.5 year old dealing with the heat. Last year was rough with the fires as well - let's hope to a nicer summer this year!

On the solar side of things. I've been thinking about getting another panel on our roof to hit 360 watts. I would love to add 2 more batteries to get 4 in total as well however I don't have much room in the front storage bay as we jam that pretty full with all our kids stuff/beach gear etc. Currently my two house batteries are on the tongue/frame part behind the propane bottles. I think eventually the plan is to get a 200AH lithium or even 300 however that also requires a converter change I understand..... decisions decisions.....


Thanks again!

Well, if your soft start is working and it allows your AC to run on a 15 amp house circuit, I'd say your issues are probably behind you but I still suspect that something is/was off as I have had no problems with the exact same generator in similar temps.......nor have I heard of anyone else having problems with a similar setup TBH. I researched Generators and generator sizing extensively prior to my purchase and I was VERY close to going with the Honda EU2200i (or a Yamaha 2400) and a soft start but at the end of the day, I didn't want anything to be borderline so I went with the 3000.

I suspect your RV dealer is referring to people running 15,000 BTUH AC units with 3000w generators, not 13,500 BTUH AC units. Starting watts for a 13.5 is 2750w and running is 1250w.....of course there are other things that may be consuming generator power (like your converter/charger!) but it still seems odd. https://farmhouseinsider.com/what-si...r-conditioner/

As far batteries go, my 4 GC-6's live on the tongue in a Century Plastics box.

We just camped at Fintry a few weeks ago; nice spot - it was our "shakedown" camp to start the season.

Cheers and happy camping!

Dave

[Persistent]

I've updated it with 2 6v 225 AH interstate deep cycles and have a 180 watt roof top solar panel. I also have a 400 W inverter and bring a honda eu3000is along to run our AC during generator time.

Side bar, if I could do it again, I would not buy the Honda. Last summer it could not handle the current surge on our 13,500 BTU Dometic AC in the heat. It would kickoff every time. The only way I was able to get it to work was by turning off every single breaker switch in the trailer and turning up the thermostat to be a couple degrees below the interior of the trailer(that was close to 40 degrees last summer). For this year, purchased the soft start AC unit so I should not have this issue. However if I could do it again, I would have purchased a 700 dollar Firman from Costco rather than be $3.5K in to the Honda. But i digress....

Dometic Brisk II Air
13,500 BTU Rooftop Air Conditioner, Ducted or Non-ducted application. ADB or control kit required.
Power consumption - Cooling mode (ISO 5151) 1670 W

Honda 3000 can easily start and run the above 1670 watt A/C. The Honda can provide the needed much higher starting current. As you suggested, the shore power cord is unlikely to be an issue. Hardware sellers are rarely very good at diagnosing RV issues.

The 3000 watt specification for the Honda is “continuous” duty. Many cheap generators advertise the generators surge capacity. Continuous duty capability may be hidden in lots of specs or not available in advertising. That said, there are many good cheaper generators that provide proper specifications in advertising.

There are some appliances in many travel trailers that draw high 120 volt power besides the A/C.
Water heaters
Running the refrigerator on 120 volts (use propane)
Water holding tank heaters (turn them “off”)
Microwave draws a lot
Hair dryer
Coffee pot
You should be able to run one of these appliances as well as the A/C at the same time.

WFCO makes an extensive line of converter chargers. A 35 amp model would draw 4 amps at 120 volts. A 55 amp model would draw 6 amps at 120 volts. and so is not likely to be a cause for tripping circuit breakers.

Turning these things “off” to start the A/C is a good practice. However, switching the Ecco mode “off” may help with the problem. The Honda should be able to start the A/C in Ecco mode if it is not already supplying power for many other 120 volt appliances.

In Ecco mode the generator RPM drops when power draw is low. RPM will automatically increase for high current, but it takes a moment. Switching the Ecco mode “off” to start the A/C will help start at the optimum RPM for high output.

[Persistent]

So other than the AC issues, the other issue we had last year was that the generator would not charge the battery that well(in BC we have 4 hours per day of generator time - 2 in the morning and 2 at dinner).
So i purchased a Victron 500 Amp Shunt(blue tooth only version) and started monitoring. I noticed that my stock WFCO converter was only putting in 15Amps(tops) to 8 amps into the battery during generator charging time.

I found that with our trailer usage(lights, water pump, and night time fan to keep kids cool on the inverter), we're using approx 70-80 amps each 24 hours. The WFCO was charging about 35 amps over the 4 hour of generator time. So this wasn't working(we camp in shady spots often so solar panel charging is minimal).

A 35 amp WFCO will supply up to 35 amps. At that point, output voltage will drop to keep output below 35 amps. The WFCO normally supplies 13.6 volts precisely regulated. There will be a slight voltage drop as current reaches 35 amps.

The WFCO will supply 14.4 volts under certain conditions. Current draw must be high compared to capacity (so maybe 30 amps). 14.4 volts will only be available for 4 hours after starting. Voltage will then drop to 13.6 volts.

Even a 225 amp hour lead acid battery draws very little charging current unless they are deeply discharged. See battery manufacturer’s specs for charge current profile.

At 10% state of charge current draw will easily exceed 35 amps. Voltage output from the WFCO will drop to limit current to 35 amps.

At 90% state of charge current may be 5 amps or so. WFCO will raise back up to 13.6. (Low current means the WFCO will not supply 14.4 volts.) You will only see 14.4 volts when current is between maybe 25 and 30 amps for up to 4 hours. See WFCO specs for actual behavior.

What might cause low charging current and low charging voltage?
1) Batteries are at a higher state of charge and not drawing high current. (See battery manufacturer charging profile.)
2) Resistance in cable between charger and battery bank. (25 feet of 6 gauge wire should be OK.) Loose or corroded connections may reduce charging current.
3) Other 12 volt appliances are drawing high current. A 400 watt inverter can draw 35 amps at full output or 20 amps at 50% output. A 12 volt absorption refrigerator can draw high current. A 12 volt compressor refrigerator can draw 7 to 10 amps. A 150 watt computer brick may draw 15 amps at 12 volts.
4) WFCO chargers occasionally develop loose connections on the control board. Tighten connectors to specified torque.

[Persistent]

After doing loads of reading this spring, I bought the PD9260 60 amp Converter hoping for faster charging rates.

I first did some charge tests with the WFCO and then installed the PD. Note, I have factory installed 6 gauge wire on a 25 ft run(converter is in center of trailer by the fridge). So I wasn't sure how much this will impact from a voltage drop perspective. I also had some loose connection issues with my stock wiring so i'm sure the factory connections along the route back to the batteries will also have a role in voltage drop.

So for the test, I drained the batteries and then charged for 4 hours with both converters to see how much current I get back into the batteries over 4 hours at home:

WFCO Charger: Total Amps Drained at start: (91.7) amps, SOC=61%, V = 12.1V.
After 2 hours: Total Amps Drained:(71.2), SOC 70%, V=13.33V, Current=10.18A
AFter 3 hours: Total Amps Drained (61.5, SOC 75%, V 13.4V, Current = 9.26A
AFter 4 hours : Total Amps Drained (53.1), SOC 79%, V= 13.44V, Current = 7.76A
Total Current added to batteries after 4 hours charging: 38.6AH

61% state of charge is a high state of charge. Batteries may limit how much current they can absorb. See battery manufacturer’s charging profile.

V=13.33V, Current=10.18A Voltage for shunt is at shunt near the battery bank. If voltage were measured on the WFCO circuit board output connector it would mean WFCO is supplying close to 35 amps. (That is where the WFCO senses voltage.) Since only 10 amps are flowing through the shunt, 25 amps must be going somewhere else.

Measure voltage on the WFCO circuit board to know for sure. If voltage on the circuit board is 13.6, then output current is probably below 30 amps. It may be 11 amps.

PD Charger(I pressed the boost mode button on the wizard): Total Amps Drained at start: (102.8) amps, SOC = 56%. V=12.52(Sorry, i let the battery rest before taking the reading so that messed it up a bit)
After 2 hours: Total Amps Drained : (56.1), SOC=77%, V = 13.8, Current = 17.32
After 3 hours: Total Amps Drained: (41.6), SOC 82%, V = 13.88, Current = 13.4
AFter 4 hours: Total Amps Drained: (29.5), SOC 87%, V = 13.92, Current = 10.9 A
Total current added to batteries after 4 hours charging = 73.3AH

So as you can see, with the PD upgrade, I've almost doubled our charging on the 4 hour daily generator time. With Solar panel top up, we should be good this year.

The PD 60 amp converter/charger is of course a much better fit for a 225 amp hour battery bank. However, the battery bank will only absorb current (charge) as fast as the battery bank design allows. Any excess current will generate hydrogen and oxygen gas. See battery manufacturer’s charging profile specs.

A 60 amp charger requires at least 4 gauge cable for 25 feet. Two gauge would be more efficient.

The battery bank can probably absorb near 50 amps when discharged to 10% state of charge. It will absorb considerably less at 77 % state of charge. You can force higher current through the batteries using 14.4 volts, but the excess current will not be added to the stored charge. It will generate hydrogen gas. See battery manufacturer’s specs.

The “boost” button is there because customers demand higher apparent charging. So it did its job. You are more satisfied.

The shunt type battery monitor will likely consider the excess current as added to the charge even though it generated hydrogen gas instead. Different monitor logic may do different things.


Last point, as a third test, I connected the PD directly to my battery using a 2ft 4 gauge wire. When I hit the boost button, I was getting 14.24 V at the batteries and charging current was levelling off at the 28A range. Now, I don't recall what my specifics on the battery were however I obviously have voltage drop based on that V reading.

Maybe next year I will upgrade the wire, however, for now, I'm ok with the 75 Amps per day charging.

I agree, you are getting some loss in the cable and connections. Four gauge cable should be adequate. Be sure ground cable from the PD is also 4 gauge. It all adds up. Battery charging is sensitive to even small line loss. Larger and shorter cable is always better.

[Persistent]

So I went back to the place I purchased the generator and they would not accept that something was wrong with the generator - they told me it was my shore cable that was the issue. I was a bit frustrated to say the least with that customer service experience.

The shore cable came with the trailer that we purchased in 2020 so I assume that is not the issue(but maybe it is?).

I then called a local RV repair shop and they told me it's very common for AC units to kickout geny's during start up surge. He also said he installs soft starts all the time for folks with 3000W genys.

So at the end of the day, it was pretty frustrating as a lot of folks swear by the honda, yet I was having a not so great experience. That being said, I did not consider an issue with the AC unit itself given it is brand new and barely used.

Lastly, when I turned on the AC here at home after installing the soft start, my 15 amp house outlet could handle the surge as well as running my honda on eco mode. So hopefully that won't give me any more issues this year. I will consider having someone take a peak at my AC unit as I'm no expert at these things.

The generator store guy is almost certainly wrong.

The RV store guy is technically correct. Many smaller generators will kick off. Some cheap generators are advertised at their surge capacity, not continuous duty capacity. A 3000 watt surge capacity generator will often trip when you try to start a big compressor motor.

However, most generators rated at 3000 watts or more continuous duty can easily run an RV roof A/C and more at the same time.

A 15 amp 120 volt electric outlet is 1800 watts. Clearly your i3000 is more capable than that.

For the fella that mentioned he has a charger directly to his batteries to hit 120V. Do you disconnect or turn the breaker off to your main converter as I read on the forums that having two battery charging sources is not a good thing?

Different RV’s are wired differently. Inverters are often added after market and are wired many different ways. He may have his whole house 120 volt system connected to his inverter output. If so, the charger 120 volt input is also connected to the inverter output. He should switch the charger “off” so the inverter drawing 12 volt power from the batteries is not supplying 120 power to the charger which would try to recharge the batteries.

There are many other possible configurations. It is unlikely your 400 watt inverter is wired to power all your house 120 volt appliances. However, turning the inverter off during fast charging may increase charging to deeply discharged batteries. An inverter consumes a little current even when idling. It consumes a lot of current when working hard.

Most modern RV converter/chargers and solar chargers work fine charging the same battery bank together. Some older designs may have various issues due to electronics design incompatibility.

Also, have a question as I have not been able to figure this one out. Does running boost mode for 2 to 4 hours at say 14.4 V pumping in 30 to 40amp hours into deep cycles batteries risk damaging them?

Most deeply discharged deep draw lead acid batteries can absorb high current at 14.4 volts. See manufacturer’s specs. Your 225 amp hour bank can probably safely draw well over 40 amps at 14.4 volts.

As the battery bank charges, the ability to absorb current decreases. At some point 14.4 volts will push too much current. The excess current will generate hydrogen gas. 13.6 volts is usually optimum for late stage charging.

Flooded cell lead acid batteries will consume more water. Check and refill often. AGM lead acid batteries may vent the excess gas. Water cannot be replaced in AGM batteries. Capacity will be lost.

[dvspl]

Originally Posted by victor D

I think eventually the plan is to get a 200AH lithium or even 300 however that also requires a converter change I understand..... decisions decisions.....

The PD9260C will charge lithium batteries fine, as long as you use the charge wizard to manually set your charging mode to the one you want. That's the setup I have with 200AH LIFEPO4. When boondocking, I use the charge wizard to force boost mode and it will put 60 A at 14.4 V into the battery bank until it's nearly fully charged. Since I also do a lot of full service camping, I put the converter into float mode (13.2V) when I'm plugged in. The batteries will discharge down to about 60% SOC, then the converter will provide power to keep them about there.