Crating- and differences of Breeders & puppymillers

[GraciesMom]

I decided against getting the new doberman, but now I have 3 white and tan chihuahuas . . . and after putting in dark wood floors and getting dark rugs to accomodate the dark doberman hair, the white hair situation is out of hand. Also - SOMEONE isn't quite potty trained yet - and I can't figure out who. SO - I bought a large soft sided crate to put all three of them in - their beds and everything fit in there nicely - for when I'm not in the rig. However, I'm wondering if I might be better off getting each of them a small crate/carrier so they have their OWN bed, own toys, etc. Also - I could tell who is having the accidents as well - and help her get better potty trained. I hate crates as a rule - I know they're highly recommended for potty training and everything, but I've always felt that they were a bit cruel, unless a dog is raised in one from a puppy. My girls certainly don't like them. But it's necessary - and it's making life a lot easier for me, at least. So - any opinions? One big crate so they can snuggle and socialize? Or their own individual crate?

[Chuck Linn]

Why were you thinking about getting a dobbie with 3 small dogs were you going to give the dobie some squeak toys Seriously the only time we put our bassets in a crate is when we put them in the groomer and then I make sure they are both in the same crate as they are life long spoiled friends cant imagine them not being togather at night or when we are out of the house.
as far as the potty mistakes you might try potty pads the dogs for some reason seem to use them , not a dog psyclogist but it they were potty trained and then just started this there might be some other problems or if they are old it could be just one of those thing that old dogs do.

[Madame Boomer]

I've raised 6 Shelties over the past 20 years - usually two at a time. I never believed in or had to crate any of them.....until Coby! I was away from the house all day at work and never once had a problem when I got home. When we were in the rig, they behaved well.

And I was yelled at many a time by obedience trainers and vets that all dogs should be crated when left alone. A crate is "their nest" - even though they are considered PACK ANIMALS, they like their own space for sleeping. For whatever reason, proponents of crating say they this is the way to go for their own safety as well as the safety of other pets in the family.

I've crated Coby for 3 years because of puppy chewing - even in the rig! He did not like it at first! From the howling he put forth, one would have thought I was killing him, but eventually (about 2 weeks) he actually would go into his crate on his own.

Now that he's passed the chewing stage, I'm weaning him from the crate and thus far he's done well in both house and rig. However, I would use the crate if we are somewhere unfamiliar to him or gone for a longer period of time than his bladder can stand....to make him feel safer.

Sandy

[MonacoMama]

We never crated any of our dogs until we got the two Pins - but they came to us as pups who were already crate trained...so it was easy on us.
They have individual crates when we are at home. You will see them in their crates throughout the day..and on their home. It is their own cave.

They share one larger crate when we are in the rig. They do travel in it while on the road most of the time. You can see them buried in it too!

They do have a routine at night when it is bedtime.. they run outside take care of business- run back in and to their crates..and wait for a treat as they settle in for bed.
MonacoMama

[Explorer2]

I empathize with you on the dog hair situation. I own two Pembroke welsh corgis. The shedding is a nightmare! They are house pups and travel with us when we go. I have them de shedded as much as possible. I use a de shedding tool at home and also have the groomers work on them. They are spoiled brats who go to the “spa” more than I do!
Just wondered..Is one of them potting in the crate? Or are you just getting ready to start crating them? Usually dogs do not go where they sleep unless they cannot stop it. Do you think one might have an infection or medical problem that could be the cause? Just a thought….

[bsavage]

I'll just share what we do, but everyone has their own way. We don't generally crate the dogs, but as we breed, we DO crate when we don't want our breeding pair to mate. Our Sire was crate trained when we bought him, he loves his crate, and is quite happy to go in it and be a good boy! Our dam has also learned to spend quality time in the crate, as I didn't like keeping Hayden (Sire) in the crate non-stop for weeks. When we have a litter, the crate is crucial, we put all the puppies in the crate when they have outgrown the whelping box, it is great for helping to housebreak, but when none of the aforementioned conditions exist, they all have the run of the house (and the motorhome), and they all sleep on the bed with us. Spoiled? Perhaps...

BTW, Monaco Mama, we have the same crates, (your dogs' "at home" crates)... I love these crates because they are pretty and work with the decor. The Min Pins look very cozy in heir crate! I use mine in the motorhome also.

Brenda, of...

[GraciesMom]

I purchased 3 medium size carriers for the girls . . . and I'm bringing the portable, foldable crate as well to let them play in if we're going to be gone for a long time during the day. It's killing me to crate them, but it's working out better. I've found out who has the potty training problem - Angel - and working with her on getting better at that.

They won't eat when I put their food in the crates - they want to graze all day. I think that's one of the problems. So I'm putting the food in for 30 minutes in the mornings and 30 minutes in the evenings and if they don't eat, THEY DON'T EAT until the next feeding time. I'm trying to get them on a strict schedule of eating and going out.

The problem with my doggies is that they came from breeders. Actually, two of them came from puppy mills. So they are used to standing, sleeping, breeding in their own excrement. Molly was from a breeder who crated her regularly so it wasn't much of a transition for her, but Angel was given the run of a house with all the other dogs and pooped at will . . . . and Gracie came from a small shed where she was bred indiscriminately with dozens of other chihuahuas, eating, sleeping and giving birth in piles of excrement - so she was a bit of a challenge - and still has accidents sometimes. She's the alpha and still feels like she has to mark her territory - LOL!!

But Gracie seems to like her crate - her treats and toys are in there and she's gone in on her own to nap. Molly is used to it so it's no big deal. Angel is the only problem - screeching, wanting to get out and having accidents. She's just going to have to learn to deal with it!! I've considered finding her a new home if she doesn't adjust, but they all love each other so much, I'd hate to take her away from her pack.

[MonacoMama]

Originally Posted by GraciesMom

...The problem with my doggies is that they came from breeders. Actually, two of them came from puppy mills. So they are used to standing, sleeping, breeding in their own excrement. Molly was from a breeder who crated her regularly so it wasn't much of a transition for her, but Angel was given the run of a house with all the other dogs and pooped at will . . . . and Gracie came from a small shed where she was bred indiscriminately with dozens of other chihuahuas, eating, sleeping and giving birth in piles of excrement - so she was a bit of a challenge - and still has accidents sometimes. She's the alpha and still feels like she has to mark her territory - LOL!!...

OK .. I know I am going a little off-topic here - but I must defend "breeders" who are true breeders. There is a big difference between breeders and puppy-millers. Our two Pins came from a "breeder" not a puppy-miller...and they were raised in the home where they were cleaned up after immediately. The house never smelled of dogs -even though there could have been 3 litters of pups in the home along with 4 or 5 "Moms" also.
Please don't use the term "breeders" -they are NOT inter-changeable with a "puppy-miller".
Sorry - I shall step down from my soap-box now...

MM

[GraciesMom]

Well, MM, if your post was off topic, mine's going to be WAY off topic. I hope it won't be deleted as I'm going to disagree with you somewhat . . . I hope it can just be moved if necessary.

First of all, I stated that my dogs came from breeders - then I clarified that by stating that two of them came from puppy mills - and that was why I was having a hard time potty training them. I stated that Molly, the one that came from the breeder, was crate trained and wasn't having a problem with being in a crate again. Although I would lump that particular breeder in with the "puppy mill" group, because of the way Molly was treated and bred. That's why I rescued her - to get her out of that life. She was about to be sold off to another breeder who was expecting to get a regularly producing female - and I have no idea what he would have done with her when she didn't perform to his expectations.

I wasn't lumping breeders and puppy mills together - but now that you've brought it up . . . .

I'm sure that there are some good breeders out there who think that they are helping the dog world by keeping their preferred breed "pure". I understand the AKC and dog show world mentality of dog ownership. And I appreciate a beautiful purebred dog as much as any other dog lover - especially dobermans. The breeder that I was going to get the retired breeding female doberman from was one such breeder - as far as breeders go, they would be considered a good one.

I was going to take that dog because I have no problem with getting retired breeders - but I will not buy a dog from anyone - for any reason. I made that mistake once, thinking I was doing something good by getting this little dog away from the breeder . . . but all I did was pad the breeder's pocket and encourage her to keep on breeding.

I'm from the other side of dog ownership - I've been rescuing dogs from puppy mills, "reputable" breeders, and dog pounds for 40 years. I've gone in to purchase a purebred dog from a "reputable breeder" then staked them out to follow them to their breeding location and reported them. I've helped shut down puppy mills. I've stood and watched animals put to sleep by the dozens because they were too sick to be saved after being rescued. I've seen these "reputable breeders" and their facade of breeding in a homey atmosphere and hand raising one litter at a time . . . and then exposed them for what they truly were - underground puppy mills.

From a Google search: "While there is no firm definition of the term "puppy mill", many people use the label for a place where puppies are business and profit, not loving pets and companions. This leaves the term "puppy mill" rather open to interpretation, doesn't it?

"Popular usage of the label "Puppy Mill" has it as a large facility, where dogs are crammed into cages, fed little, uncared for, with little or no human contact, and forced to breed heat cycle after heat cycle, while an uncaring owner reaps profits.

"In the past few years there have been more and more "busts" and the media has publicized the closing of some of the larger mills. In some of the pictures you see dogs stacked in cages, feces and urine covering those on the bottom rack, sometimes as many as five dogs to a crate made to hold one or two, and crates by the dozen. The dogs themselves are malnourished, terrified creatures who have never heard a kind word or felt a loving hand until their rescue.

"The perception of "Puppy Mill" is not only a dirty, cruel cage facility where hundreds of puppies are born to sick and diseased dogs every year, but also those who keep a couple of dogs and breed them indiscriminately, whenever the heat cycle starts. "Puppy Mills" can be everyone from a mass producer with more than 50 dogs, to the Backyard Breeder who breeds puppies to sell without making sure they are doing it the right way. In short, anybody who breeds dog (or cats) for profit, rather than the breeders who breed to better the breed.

"Puppy mills are a serious problem as breeding for profits gains momentum in this day and age. "Anything to make a dollar" has, sadly, become a motto, and the innocent animals are suffering for it. "

Even sadder is the fact that most people don't even know that puppy mills exist. They go blindly buy purebred dogs from an ad in the paper - or they pass by a pet store and can't resist that cute dog in the window. They never know the squalid conditions that the parents of that puppy suffer through.

Just as I won't buy products from third world countries that use child labor or are guilty of other crimes against humanity, I won't buy a dog. Not as long as there are millions of dogs that have to be destroyed every year because of irresponsible owners not spaying and neutering them - or because they are the overbred, unwanted products of dog breeding.

A dog is a wonderful animal - whether it's purebred or not. And I will do nothing to propagate the suffering of innocent animals.

And if anyone reading this doesn't know what a puppy mill is - just do a google search for "puppy mills". But be prepared to be shocked and disgusted.

[bsavage]

Okay, now I need to go off topic, too! I agree that rescuing dogs is the best option, but some people do want to have their purebred dog. Therefore, without reputable breeders, puppy mills will continue to abuse these dogs and crank out puppies... because there is demand. In my opinion, there are not many things worse on this planet than puppy mills. If you've ever seen the Oprah shows where they've gone into these puppy mills, it is absolutely heartbreaking and makes me literally sick. As a breeder myself, I hope that by offering our Cavaliers (that are our pets and companions, sleep on the bed with us, rule the household, and basically run our lives, LOL...) we keep a few less puppy mills from overbreeding. The more people know about this problem, and the more research they do when they buy, the better... and perhaps someday we will eliminate these puppy mills. We only breed one pair, and then only occasionally... NEVER every heat cycle. So, I have to ask that the term breeder is not interchanged with "puppy mill". The folks that buy our dogs are always welcomed into our home to see how our dogs are raised... and they are more than welcome to "stake me out"... usually we try to be very sure that our dogs are going to responsible new owners and question them on their plans, their home and living conditions for the dog, and offer ongoing advice and guidance. We also have, as part of our contract, a clause that allows the new owner to return that dog to us for any reason at any time if they are unable to care for it. Those who buy purebred dogs should know exactly where their dog is coming from (there are websites that offer puppies, and you have no idea where the dog is coming from!). This is a red flag. Be careful out there, people!

Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now, too. You'll get things sorted out with your Angel... as you know, dogs require lots of patience and repetition, and there is lots of adjusting going on there. Give them all some extra belly rubs from us!

Brenda, of...

[Explorer2]

I understand the problem with the dogs now; you will have your hand full training for a while yet. Anytime someone takes on a rescue, the dogs are usually have some type of baggage they bring. You will love them all the more for it.
I applaud your dedication on closing puppy mills, I am sure your three girls will be very happy with you.

[GraciesMom]

I may have come on a little strong in my previous post - I didn't mean to offend anyone, but I am a student of Buddhism and American Indian Spirituality and I have to look at the big picture when it comes to anything. I love diamonds but I won't buy them because I can't be guaranteed that they don't come from Africa. I love rubies but, as with the diamonds, I can't be sure they don't come from Burmese. I can't enjoy something if I know that it came at a price to another human being. That may sound crazy to some, but it's just the way I am. It's getting harder and harder to shop at all because so many products are made in China or Vietnam or other oppressed countries . . . and of course we all know where most of our oil comes from. But I try very hard to buy American made products and, as I said, to not aid any individual or company by giving them money if they harm any living thing. I am even going vegetarian because I can't in good conscience continue to eat meat when I know how those animals suffer before being packaged for consumption. Yes, I'm getting soft in my old age . . . and sometimes it's impossible to live by this . . . but I feel better if I try. There's always a bigger picture out there . . . everything we do has consequences. My not buying these things won't put an end to the suffering, but at least I don't feel guilty about my choices.

[bsavage]

I want to say something very gently, Gracie's Mom... by buying puppies from puppy mills to save the puppies, you increased the chances that those puppy mills will continue to operate. I'm sorry, I know you probably don't (or didn't) think of it that way, and thank God your babies have a safe and loving environment now with you. But if they can't sell 'em, they won't keep breeding them inhumanely. If and when the puppy mills get shut down, hopefully those dogs and puppies will be placed in a rescue facility where they are treated with love and dignity, spayed and neutered, cleaned and vaccinated, and rescued. No dog should ever be living in it's own excrement (or the one above it's). Too horrible.

One thing I forgot to mention previously is health testing for breeding dogs... each breed has it's own issues and prospective owners should ask (and confirm with copies of the paperwork) that the sire and dam have been tested for whatever genetic flaws can exist within the breed. Some tests have to be completed annually.

There are choices in everything we bring into our lives, including meats, and even veggies. You don't have to give them up (unless you want to)... but you can make choices about where it all comes from. It sounds to me like you are very conscientious and loving.

How about some pics of those chihuahuas?

Brenda,of...

[Explorer2]

Your right about the health of the dogs you buy....and problems that can be associated with the breed. We love our Corgis but there can be health issues with them also, I support corgi aid and other animal rescues as much as possible.

http://www.corgiaid.org/