Crating- and differences of Breeders & puppymillers

[Jim Stewart]

I'm a cat man myself!

[justimagination]

Originally Posted by GraciesMom

Well, MM, if your post was off topic, mine's going to be WAY off topic. I hope it won't be deleted as I'm going to disagree with you somewhat . . . I hope it can just be moved if necessary.

First of all, I stated that my dogs came from breeders - then I clarified that by stating that two of them came from puppy mills - and that was why I was having a hard time potty training them. I stated that Molly, the one that came from the breeder, was crate trained and wasn't having a problem with being in a crate again. Although I would lump that particular breeder in with the "puppy mill" group, because of the way Molly was treated and bred. That's why I rescued her - to get her out of that life. She was about to be sold off to another breeder who was expecting to get a regularly producing female - and I have no idea what he would have done with her when she didn't perform to his expectations.

I wasn't lumping breeders and puppy mills together - but now that you've brought it up . . . .

I'm sure that there are some good breeders out there who think that they are helping the dog world by keeping their preferred breed "pure". I understand the AKC and dog show world mentality of dog ownership. And I appreciate a beautiful purebred dog as much as any other dog lover - especially dobermans. The breeder that I was going to get the retired breeding female doberman from was one such breeder - as far as breeders go, they would be considered a good one.

I was going to take that dog because I have no problem with getting retired breeders - but I will not buy a dog from anyone - for any reason. I made that mistake once, thinking I was doing something good by getting this little dog away from the breeder . . . but all I did was pad the breeder's pocket and encourage her to keep on breeding.

I'm from the other side of dog ownership - I've been rescuing dogs from puppy mills, "reputable" breeders, and dog pounds for 40 years. I've gone in to purchase a purebred dog from a "reputable breeder" then staked them out to follow them to their breeding location and reported them. I've helped shut down puppy mills. I've stood and watched animals put to sleep by the dozens because they were too sick to be saved after being rescued. I've seen these "reputable breeders" and their facade of breeding in a homey atmosphere and hand raising one litter at a time . . . and then exposed them for what they truly were - underground puppy mills.

From a Google search: "While there is no firm definition of the term "puppy mill", many people use the label for a place where puppies are business and profit, not loving pets and companions. This leaves the term "puppy mill" rather open to interpretation, doesn't it?

"Popular usage of the label "Puppy Mill" has it as a large facility, where dogs are crammed into cages, fed little, uncared for, with little or no human contact, and forced to breed heat cycle after heat cycle, while an uncaring owner reaps profits.

"In the past few years there have been more and more "busts" and the media has publicized the closing of some of the larger mills. In some of the pictures you see dogs stacked in cages, feces and urine covering those on the bottom rack, sometimes as many as five dogs to a crate made to hold one or two, and crates by the dozen. The dogs themselves are malnourished, terrified creatures who have never heard a kind word or felt a loving hand until their rescue.

"The perception of "Puppy Mill" is not only a dirty, cruel cage facility where hundreds of puppies are born to sick and diseased dogs every year, but also those who keep a couple of dogs and breed them indiscriminately, whenever the heat cycle starts. "Puppy Mills" can be everyone from a mass producer with more than 50 dogs, to the Backyard Breeder who breeds puppies to sell without making sure they are doing it the right way. In short, anybody who breeds dog (or cats) for profit, rather than the breeders who breed to better the breed.

"Puppy mills are a serious problem as breeding for profits gains momentum in this day and age. "Anything to make a dollar" has, sadly, become a motto, and the innocent animals are suffering for it. "

Even sadder is the fact that most people don't even know that puppy mills exist. They go blindly buy purebred dogs from an ad in the paper - or they pass by a pet store and can't resist that cute dog in the window. They never know the squalid conditions that the parents of that puppy suffer through.

Just as I won't buy products from third world countries that use child labor or are guilty of other crimes against humanity, I won't buy a dog. Not as long as there are millions of dogs that have to be destroyed every year because of irresponsible owners not spaying and neutering them - or because they are the overbred, unwanted products of dog breeding.

A dog is a wonderful animal - whether it's purebred or not. And I will do nothing to propagate the suffering of innocent animals.

And if anyone reading this doesn't know what a puppy mill is - just do a google search for "puppy mills". But be prepared to be shocked and disgusted.

Thank God for a person such as you, what compassion you have, and such a gift to society.
David G. & Andrea C.

[golden]

Originally Posted by bsavage

This is always a heated topic, Gracie's Mom. Again, I have to say that I am glad for the conversation, for enlightening those that have read this thread, and for the passion with which those of us that breed carefully, lovingly, and responsibly have had a forum to explain how and why we breed our dogs. As for your friend that breeds as well as rescues, well, she may be, in my opinion, one of the best of the best. If the best of breeding is to improve the breed, then you wouldn't breed the ones that didn't health test well, or carry the best in breed traits, or that had unknown hereditary defects, or that carried unsocial traits. Yet, someone has bred these dogs not caring about any of these things, and these dogs still need homes. So, she helps place them. I am sure she is spaying and nuetering them. My hat is off to her. It sounds to me like she is trying to educate perspective owners as well as save the poor babies who shouldn't have been bred (or sold to owners who wouldn't/couldn't take care of them).

Golden, I too would like to come back as one of your dogs, or as one of mine. You are, quite obviously, a passionate, caring, and loving breeder. I am sure you miss it, and I'd love to see some pics of your two!

Jim, how can you not have a dog???? Gracie'sMom knows someone who has the perfect Pomeranian rescue for you! Dogs are very excellent travel companions...

Brenda, of...

Brenda,

Since I'm on my laptop, I don't have any pictures of my dogs. However, I can do even better. If you will follow what I've listed below, you will go the the site of a reputable Sheltie breeder and show person who is one of the very best and most caring persons I've ever known. Her site is an expression of her love for the breed. We bought Josey from her. Unlike others, I believe that if you don't pay for a dog, you may not devote the time, attention and money to it that it requires. There are always exceptions to this, but not very much. Pictures of my dogs and many others are on this site.

www.mystiqueshelties.com, then go to the bottom of the page to "Family & Friends, then go to the right column and click on "Josey". You will see a small montage of my Sheltie and my Golden. They are inseperable.

[bsavage]

Golden, those dogs are beautiful, and one can tell how much they love each other and what fun they have! Thanks for sharing!

Brenda, of...

[GraciesMom]

I believe that if you don't pay for a dog, you may not devote the time, attention and money to it that it requires. There are always exceptions to this, but not very much.

Oh, I tried - I really tried not to participate in this thread any longer, but I can't let this stand.

Your statement, then your follow up comment that "There are always exceptions to this, BUT NOT VERY MUCH." is so untrue is makes my blood run cold. I respect your beliefs, but I cannot imagine where they came from.

How about the rush of people that ran out and bought Dalmations after the movie came out, then dumped them on the street or in dog pounds. (That is a FACT - you can Google the stories).

The same rush of people that run out and buy the designer dog of the month that stars in the latest movie - Beverly Hills Chihuahua, Beethoven, As Good As It Gets, Air Bud, etc., After all of these movies, there was a demand for these purebred dogs and a rush to purchase, and within months, their numbers in the shelters were astronomical. This has been a problem as far back as Rin-Tin-Tin and Lassie. Remember the "Daring Doberman" movies? Everyone had to have a doberman - not knowing anything about the breed.

Then there are the people who bought the tiny little dogs - teacup chihuahuas or silky terriers - so they could be like Paris Hilton and Britney Spears (who carry their little possessions with them everywhere, them dump them at home when the photo opportunity is over) . . . . . the people who go out and purchase those cute puppies for birthday or Christmas presents and then they end up on chains out in the backyard or at the dog pound because the families are too buys for them once their "cuteness" has worn off. . . .and now the people that are going to run out and buy Chinese Water Dogs to be like the 1st family . . . HOW CAN YOU MAKE THAT STATEMENT?

Dog pounds, and even moreso, purebred dog rescues, are FULL of formerly PURCHASED, PUREBRED DOGS that have been dumped because the reality of owning them was more than the new owners wanted to deal with!!! If you don't believe me, go take a walk down the aisles in the dog pounds - I do - in every city I go to!! Or get online and do a Google Search for purebred dog rescues.

But to say that people who don't buy their dogs are, in the majority, bad dog owners??? I don't get it.

[golden]

Originally Posted by GraciesMom

Oh, I tried - I really tried not to participate in this thread any longer, but I can't let this stand.

Your statement, then your follow up comment that "There are always exceptions to this, BUT NOT VERY MUCH." is so untrue is makes my blood run cold. I respect your beliefs, but I cannot imagine where they came from.

How about the rush of people that ran out and bought Dalmations after the movie came out, then dumped them on the street or in dog pounds. (That is a FACT - you can Google the stories).

The same rush of people that run out and buy the designer dog of the month that stars in the latest movie - Beverly Hills Chihuahua, Beethoven, As Good As It Gets, Air Bud, etc., After all of these movies, there was a demand for these purebred dogs and a rush to purchase, and within months, their numbers in the shelters were astronomical. This has been a problem as far back as Rin-Tin-Tin and Lassie. Remember the "Daring Doberman" movies? Everyone had to have a doberman - not knowing anything about the breed.

Then there are the people who bought the tiny little dogs - teacup chihuahuas or silky terriers - so they could be like Paris Hilton and Britney Spears (who carry their little possessions with them everywhere, them dump them at home when the photo opportunity is over) . . . . . the people who go out and purchase those cute puppies for birthday or Christmas presents and then they end up on chains out in the backyard or at the dog pound because the families are too buys for them once their "cuteness" has worn off. . . .and now the people that are going to run out and buy Chinese Water Dogs to be like the 1st family . . . HOW CAN YOU MAKE THAT STATEMENT?

Dog pounds, and even moreso, purebred dog rescues, are FULL of formerly PURCHASED, PUREBRED DOGS that have been dumped because the reality of owning them was more than the new owners wanted to deal with!!! If you don't believe me, go take a walk down the aisles in the dog pounds - I do - in every city I go to!! Or get online and do a Google Search for purebred dog rescues.

But to say that people who don't buy their dogs are, in the majority, bad dog owners??? I don't get it.

I generally wouldn't admit - as you did about yourself - that I was cold blooded. Also, I've never heard of a Chinese Water Dog. The Obama's have a Portuguese Water Dog.

People who run out to get an animal as a pet because of what they saw in a movie haven't done their research. I have little pity for them when it goes bad. The unfortunate thing is that the animal is the one to suffer.

Why do I believe that it is best to pay for a pet? Primarily because I've seen too many cases where people treat freebies as if they were dirt. They didn't pay for them so they don't feel any responsibilty toward them. If one pays a bare minmum, then at least there is some degree of responsibility attached from then on. I don't know about you, but if I buy something I take good care of it. I don't have a clue where you get the idea that I feel that people who don't buy their pets are bad owners. That is NOT what I said and I don't need some holier-than-thou type telling me so. As I mentioned, there are exceptions - rescue, animal shelties, etc., but even these frequently charge a fee.

I agree with you that people dump their dogs, whether pure bred or not, when they find out that they aren't what they expected, wanted, or cost too much to maintain. They didn't do their due diligence before getting their pets. However, your ranting is simply that - ranting. You're just doing it to make yourself feel better.

Someone stated earlier (it was you, actually) that we are all dog lovers. We may approach our affection and care in different fashion, but we generally arrive at the same place. I don't doubt your affection for dogs although I resent the fact that you don't accept my feeling for mine. Get off your high horse and stop the lecture. If you respected my beliefs, you wouldn't try to lecture me and others who feel as I do. Keep taking care of the dogs you rescue, that is a noble effort. But don't lump those of us who have had pure bred dogs for more years than we care to remember in with those who know little or nothing about them.

If you want to continue your ranting, just send me a PM. That way we won't bore the other people who may read our posts. I don't believe in trying to force my beliefs on others and will not accept that from anyone else.

[Route 66]

Time out folks!

The name calling and personal comments are not permitted.

You can state your position without attacking those with differing views.

[GraciesMom]

It's amazing that a debate cannot be held on this subject without name calling and derogatory comments. Seems that there are sensitive nerves here - I wonder why?

I simply stated my disagreement with your comment and stated facts to back up why I disagreed with it. I can respect your opinion and still disagree with it. I didn't call you names or make derogatory comments as you did. You expressed your opinion and I also have the right to express MY OPINION. But my opinion is a rant and yours isn't?

And as far as your comment that I'm "doing this to make myself feel better" - I don't have to do anything to make myself feel better. I feel great when it comes to my involvement with dogs, dog rescue, etc. I talk the talk and walk the walk. And I'm not defending myself - I have nothing to defend. I'm trying to defend, protect, and rescue the dogs.

[TXiceman]

Folks, let's just let it chill a bit.

Ken

[PapPappy]

Yikes!
I hadn't read all the way through this thread...figured I'd give my two cents on your OP......oh well, here is what I wrote...thank goodness I can edit.


We have six of the little buggers....Papillons though, but pretty much the same size! Some are crated, some aren't....all have questionable ethics when it comes to potty training

We have the smallest cages (not the crates) for the girls....we have a pair of twins, who sleep together in their cage. We toss a towel over it, to give them some privacy, and to keep them from being distracted by what is outside. We can always take it off, if it's too hot. They have the sleeping pad inside, and have only soiled it a couple of times....most likely, our mistake for not noticing them wanting out!

We also have a couple who do not want to be in a crate at all....so, we're training them...basically, we feed them in there, and they like to eat, so they don't mind going in....also a chew toy or treat when we are going out gets them in there on a "happy" mood, and they don't hate it as much.
Work your way up slowly, maybe 5-10 minutes the first time...then up to 15 or so...gradually working your way up.

It is not cruel to keep your dog in a crate or cage, as long as it's not for too long. You mentioned Puppy Mills ....but I want you to know that there is a huge difference between keeping your dog in a crate for it's protection or training, and having the dog "LIVE" in the cage it's entire life!

We've had dogs that would run to their crate, when they would see us grab the car keys....they knew that they would be getting a treat.

3 of our Paps sleep with us on the bed....3 of them are in cages along side the bed (even in the RV)....they don't really get upset, because they are used to this routine......dogs like routines!!

Good luck and Happy Camping

[Wicked Whippets]

If you are looking for a dog with a family health history you can check before you buy, attend an AKC dog show in your area, meet the exhibitors showing the breeds that interest you and find out who is breeding healthy dogs. I'm at a couple shows monthly and many of them have "meet the breed" booths where you can spend time learning about various breeds. I equate this to doing your homework.

You also can find an association on the web for nearly every breed and each of these that I am aware of has links to responsible breeder sites. If you ask the associations about a particular breeder they will tell you if it's a puppy mill or not. Believe me, I'm involved in two associations--whippets and affenpinschers--and they are way more critical of who is breeding and the quality of their litters than you will ever be.

The goal of responsible breeders who show is to maintain and strengthen a particular breed. At shows there are long discussions about breed traits, health issues and other matters that impact their breed. In the two breeds where I'm involved if a particular dog or *itch doesn't meet or improve the breed standard it is neutered or spayed to assure its genes stay put. I just neutered my first AKC Champion.



He is a great whippet. Everyone who sees him loves him, but he has a slight defect that should not be entered into the gene pool for whippets.

Anyhow, I crate my dogs at night and feed them in their crates. They eat better than I do, get daily exercise that I should be doing myself and better medical care than my kids.

I plan on breeding two of my whippets in a couple years. If all goes well, their pups will be champions when they mature and help insure the continuation of the breed standard of excellence. I sure don't fit the definition of a puppy mill, but some of the recent proposed laws would make it nearly impossible to meet the government red tape to be allowed for this one breeding. And certainly, the folks from PETA (they criticized the President for swatting a fly) would like to eliminate me and others like me by laws or force. If you have a dog, cat or goldfish you eventually will be a target of PETA and likeminded groups and individuals.

[MonacoMama]

Wicked Whippets...I could not have said it any better!