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-   -   Back from Death Valley -- New Engine (https://www.irv2.com/forums/f22/back-from-death-valley-new-engine-20323.html)

rgrstndgby 12-07-2007 10:16 AM

Fred said

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Going West is a piece of cake compared to going East, that climb is tougher. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was the East Bounder that I had such a time with last July. I was at gross ( W20), with a loaded CRV in tow, (unhooking not a possibility) and the Old Winnie suffered.. 2nd gear, 4500+ and a sharp eye on the temps. I did notice however, that nobody came around me. rgr...

Fred and Bonnie 12-07-2007 01:39 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rgrstndgby:
It was the East Bounder that I had such a time with last July. I was at gross ( W20), with a loaded CRV in tow, (unhooking not a possibility) and the Old Winnie suffered.. 2nd gear, 4500+ and a sharp eye on the temps. I did notice however, that nobody came around me. rgr... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know what you mean, now add another 4K weight, it's still second gear and bouncing off the rev limiter. I downloaded my engine data after the climb and the water temp never went over 225ยบ. Unfortunately I didn't have the trans temp. I am hoping ScanGuge II gets the Allison codes added so I can monitor the trans temp.

Fred

max49 12-07-2007 03:00 PM

I keep hearing you guys talking about pulling these passes in 2nd gear.
I'm not good at establishing ratios, per se but just as a reference, with my 4 speed E485 or something like that, in 1st gear @ app 5000RPM I think I'm going about 37 to 40 MPH.
In 2nd gear @ 5000 RPM I think I'm going close to 60 MPH. My transmission sounds like it may be geared a little high, but how does that speed & RPM in 1st & 2nd gear compare to the Allison 5 speed and if any one has the 6 speed that would be intersting to know also.
The 4 speed seems fine for driving on Flat roads and no wind. Sometimes , I can average 9 or 9.5 MPG between fill ups but other times around 7 MPG.
I don't really like running 4600 to 5000RPM,
but I really feel that I don't have much choice but to run at least 46 to 4800. When I run up to 5000 it usually because I'm not watching the tach. Lots of mechanic type people have told me it won't hurt it but with 496 cu inches, those are some big pistons and long strokes moving pretty fast.
Up until recently, I always thought the internals of this engine would easily out last the rest of the MH. I still pretty much think this.
This engine could easily produce 500HP so with it detuned to 340HP, it should last a 100,000 miles easily.
Diesel Clacker, I believe you are exactly right about the newer Diesel engines. I know some of the older diesels were dogs. But these new ones are not only torque monsters but they'll squish you back in the seat like a 747 taking off. Gotta be the turbo.
I've been impressed with the Powerstroke lately but most of those guys have a 'chip' in them. But that Duramax, Isuzu will run right with them completely stock. I think America may be falling behind. Isuzu and Mercedes Benz making great diesel engines. How come Ford and GM don't know how to build an outstanding diesel engine?
Oh yea, the Duramax is alot quieter than the Powerstroke too, almost like a gas engine.

DriVer 12-07-2007 05:31 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by max49:
Isuzu and Mercedes Benz making great diesel engines. How come Ford and GM don't know how to build an outstanding diesel engine? Oh yea, the Duramax is alot quieter than the Powerstroke too, almost like a gas engine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Max, The Powerstroke is made by WCC's parent company, International Truck & Engine, right here in the good ol' USA. It's almost a given that when we see the RDP version of the UFO it certainly will be powered by a MaxxForce 7 Navistar V8 Twin Turbo engine of approximately 350HP and 600 lbs/ft of torque. Acceleration on this engine is reported to be almost gas like in off the line performance but not quite. It is somewhat faster than a single turbo unit since the MF7 engine spools up a lot faster.

I believe the new 2008 MF7 / PSD engine is as quiet as a DMax.

max49 12-07-2007 06:03 PM

That's interesting Driver. I was comparing the '08 Duramax to and '06 Powerstroke so maybe they have gotten quieter.
I've got a F-150 with the 5.4 L V-8. I can not come close to staying with a F-350 or Chevy 3500 with their diesel engines , in acceleration if they don't want me too, so I don't under stand "almost gas like"
It's getting confusing; but I know it's true. Let's see; Ford uses the Powerstroke which is built by International who owns Workhorse, who now uses Chevrolet gas engines but WH will now start to use the Ford Diesel, built by International instead of the Chevy Duramax diesel, built by Isuzu.
Can you tell me this Driver?
If Ford can build a Cl A chassis with motor mounts for the V-10 why did'nt they offerthe Powerstroke before?
The exact same question for WH. I they could buy and install the Chevy 8.1 gasser in their chassis why could'nt they have bought and installed the Duramax engine in their chassis?
I realize they would need a diesel generator also. So maybe a 8K or so upgrade.
I think I would buy it and probably many others.
So in your opinion, why has neither Ford or WH even offered the option?
They get better mileage too

DriVer 12-07-2007 06:19 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by max49:
I they could buy and install the Chevy 8.1 gasser in their chassis why couldn't they have bought and installed the Duramax engine in their chassis? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Max, It comes down to a single word, "Allocation". GM doesn't make enough DMax engines to supply it's fleet needs and a 3rd party manufacturer that would need a number of engines to ramp up their production.

In case we hadn't spoke about this WCC isn't going to be introducing a DMaxed-front-engine-anything. WCC is proceeding with a limited business plan to transform itself from a puller to a pusher company. In so doing they will use the current GM 8.1l engine and the parent company should be providing the MF7.

WCC also buys CAT engines for its RDP R-Series by the way.

WCC is a custom chassis company and they will buy or make whatever the OEMs want them to make if their customers are buying that particular product. WCC can move their engineering and production time tables much more quickly than larger companies like Ford for instance.

I don't think the issue of engines and all that is too confusing. WCC will buy and use whatever it needs to accomplish its objectives along the lines of the in-place supplier agreements that it has with all of its vendors. IMO if the needs change then I'm sure whatever goes into the rail will change along with demand.

I just don't see anything on the radar screen that remotely offers a "front" engine diesel engine in a WCC rail. When WCC is ready they'll make a "DERF" instead of putting it in the front it'll go in the rear "where it rightfully belongs!"

max49 12-07-2007 06:48 PM

I hear what you're saying but it just seems that making a diesel available , possible bolting up to the same motormounts and transmission would make the upgrade more affordable. The only price increase necessary would be the upgraded engine and generator.
If WH's intention is to transform into a pusher company, are'nt they going to lose out on a lot of entry level purchases?

DriVer 12-07-2007 07:17 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by max49:
If WH's intention is to transform into a pusher company, aren't they going to lose out on a lot of entry level purchases? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Max, WCC has more products positioned in this business than anyone:

Class C GM/WCC, W16, W18, W20, W21, W22, W24, W22.5, UFO22, UFO26, R-28, R30 & R32. Hope I haven't missed any.

To answer your question, WCC will keep on building front engined chassis as long as they are wanted by the OEMs and the public.

That said I think we're going to see a lot more focus on the rear engined products. https://irv2.infopop.cc/groupee_commo.../icon_wink.gif

NeilV 12-08-2007 01:06 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by max49:
If Ford can build a Cl A chassis with motor mounts for the V-10 why did'nt they offerthe Powerstroke before?
The exact same question for WH. I they could buy and install the Chevy 8.1 gasser in their chassis why could'nt they have bought and installed the Duramax engine in their chassis?
I realize they would need a diesel generator also. So maybe a 8K or so upgrade.
I think I would buy it and probably many others.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Max,

I was looking at this also. Lets see the MSRP on a new Adventurer 38T is about $179,000 and offering it as a diesel puller would add $10,000 or so to the price tag bringing it to $189,000. A new Destination Diesel has a MSRP of $194,000. Would people at that price point be more inclined to skip the Adventurer and for $5,000 more go with the Destination with the rear diesel from the get go. For another $10,000 we could be looking at a Journey on a Freightliner chassis.

All would be around the $200,000 range. If you were going to spend around $200,000 on a motorhome which would you get? With the soft market I don't think many builders want to gamble on that.

max49 12-08-2007 05:40 PM

Neil, I see what you're saying, but;; I paid about $70,000 or so for my Daybreak. Would I have paid $80,000 for it with a Duramax or Powerstroke and diesel generator? I'm wiser now than I was when I bought mine and I absolutely would now.
Unless I change my thinking, I'd never pay any where near $175,000 for any MH. A DP would be nice if you could afford it , and afford to have it worked on.
A Powerstroke or Duramax in my MH would be nice especially in Co. Diesel's more expensive but they get better mileage than gas.
Another drawback to diesel in Co. is that they have to get an emission test every year.
I don't know about the rest of the country but most of the 3/4 T and bigger pickups out here are diesel. Unless it's an old beater, all the small commercial trucks are diesel.

NeilV 12-09-2007 01:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by max49:
Neil, I see what you're saying, but;; I paid about $70,000 or so for my Daybreak. Would I have paid $80,000 for it with a Duramax or Powerstroke and diesel generator? I'm wiser now than I was when I bought mine and I absolutely would now.
Unless I change my thinking, I'd never pay any where near $175,000 for any MH. A DP would be nice if you could afford it , and afford to have it worked on.
A Powerstroke or Duramax in my MH would be nice especially in Co. Diesel's more expensive but they get better mileage than gas.
Another drawback to diesel in Co. is that they have to get an emission test every year.
I don't know about the rest of the country but most of the 3/4 T and bigger pickups out here are diesel. Unless it's an old beater, all the small commercial trucks are diesel. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Max,

That would then become a price point issue again. I agree that it would be nice however we have to deal with bean counters and market research groups who would most likely say that the target group for a $70,000 motor home would not be willing to pay the extra $10,000.

We have to deal with these guys who think they know what we really want. Even if they get it right then we have to deal with the bean counters who will only allow us what they think we want if it generates the highest profits possible.

Oh well, I guess we will have to make due for now.

I have the V10 and would consider changing it out with a diesel if it ever fails.

TandW 12-09-2007 06:13 AM

This topic should be recommended for reading by all newbies/wannabees who are contemplating purchasing a pre-owned unit. The reasons are so very apparent!!


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