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-   -   Thor quality control issues - response from the Director (https://www.irv2.com/forums/f281/thor-quality-control-issues-response-from-the-director-205429.html)

davidki 10-08-2014 05:35 PM
Thanks Bob for the reply and I'm glad to hear that you are having a great time with your unit... you are correct, folks will spend the time to complain, not so much take the time to praise! Not just Motorhomes are treated that way :-)

We started to look at the 32 -34' range of Gas Motorhomes ( our sister in law has a Fleetwood 34' gas, loves it and other than slow climbing the hillls she is happy with her's. My wife and I like the idea of a diesel, and it did look like the Palazzo seemed to hit the mark on price - features with the diesel thrown in. I do understand thate everything has issues and it depends on how that problem is taken care of as to how many issues one has.

The slide issue is concerning but i'm not sure how large the slide on the 33 -34' is and if it is one of the unit that is showing problems or not..

How is the power of the 300hp cummins? What kind of milage are you getting? How much of the DEF does it burn? I"d be interested in what the average "Service" (not warranty issues are) and compare that to a gasser, I'm told that the diesel upkeep and serivice is quite a bit more than gas.

My GMC pick up towing our 26' jayco get about 8 - 10 mpg, it is gas and a 2500 HD which as you can see is not that good of a millage. I've been told that even if we went to a 2500 hd with a diesel it would not be that big of a difference in millage and the cost are almost 2x.

So, that is where I am... Looking for an options that isn't too big and is reasonible on service and millage...

I look forward to your reply.

HDRoadking 10-08-2014 06:06 PM
Thor quality control issues - response from the Director
 
Dave,

I generally drive at about 60 to 62 miles per hour. This is where the sweet spot is based on what I learned at Camp Freightliner. I generally put the transmission in "mode", which is also economy. In the winter I will get mileage approaching or slightly exceeding 12 miles per gallon. In the summer it drops because of running the generator to drive the A/C units. I do this towing a Jeep Wrangler. It also seems to depend whether I find #2 diesel or have to settle for Bio additives.

There is plenty of power. We go to north Georgia a lot and it climbs the hills (mountains) just fine. That too lowers the mileage rate because you cannot use mode and you do "mash on the motor" harder. The engine brake is great for going down hill.

As for DEF it is nominal. I have used maybe 20 gallons in a year, but that is a guess. I pump it at Flying J and that holds the cost down.



Sent from my iPad using iRV2 - RV Forum

HVAC Bill 10-08-2014 07:25 PM
X2 on HDroadkings comments. If you can't enjoy your toy, then sell and move on! Life is too short to read the anti-Thors out there complaining about it. This is not my first RV, but has been the one with the least problems. Lucky me I guess :)

2013 Palazzo 33.3

davidki 10-08-2014 07:25 PM
Bob, thanks for that Info, I found a 2014 for sale at Lazy Daze and sent the link to my wife to look at, but, it shows that one is in the process of a sale but I'll continue to look,

The slide on the 33.2 is quite large, does it have 2 or 3 rails? how has it been working for you?

That fuel mileage is impressive (and you said you got that towing the Jeep)? That is amazing.. with out the Jeep what would you get?

Now sure what you mean on Diesel 2 vs "bio additives"

I need to do quite a bit reading on the chassis and engine I guess, there are quite a few configurations that are offered by Thor and others and even more important the transmission.

We have built an RV garage that with the internal size of 35' I wonder if I could squeeze the 33.2 in to it ... if Not I'd have to have the guy that built the garage come back and extend it one panel.

I had also asked if you could let me know what your standard services are running for you? I guess in most cases it would be a oil change and that would be about it? Do you have that done at a freight liner center?

I have not found another diesel in this size and price range ( I think you mentioned that)..... it is pretty impressive and worth exploring more. I did look at the Tiffin Breeze 32, it is a nice coach but 19" wheels and a custom chassis I'm concerned about repairs and upkeep. I think the Tiffin is only a 240 hp engine and I thin it's a Navstar not a Cummings.

ChallengerRN 10-08-2014 07:32 PM
Thor quality control issues - response from the Director
 
Forest River just came out a couple weeks ago with a 34QS Berkshire
$233,000 list. Should be able to buy it for $170,000 or so. 340 HP cummins
Vinyl tile floor--4 slides. ??!

Russell

StevieD 10-08-2014 07:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidki (Post 2261713)
Bob, thanks for that Info, I found a 2014 for sale at Lazy Daze and sent the link to my wife to look at, but, it shows that one is in the process of a sale but I'll continue to look,

The slide on the 33.2 is quite large, does it have 2 or 3 rails? how has it been working for you?

That fuel mileage is impressive (and you said you got that towing the Jeep)? That is amazing.. with out the Jeep what would you get?

Now sure what you mean on Diesel 2 vs "bio additives"

I need to do quite a bit reading on the chassis and engine I guess, there are quite a few configurations that are offered by Thor and others and even more important the transmission.

We have built an RV garage that with the internal size of 35' I wonder if I could squeeze the 33.2 in to it ... if Not I'd have to have the guy that built the garage come back and extend it one panel.

I had also asked if you could let me know what your standard services are running for you? I guess in most cases it would be a oil change and that would be about it? Do you have that done at a freight liner center?

I have not found another diesel in this size and price range ( I think you mentioned that)..... it is pretty impressive and worth exploring more. I did look at the Tiffin Breeze 32, it is a nice coach but 19" wheels and a custom chassis I'm concerned about repairs and upkeep. I think the Tiffin is only a 240 hp engine and I thin it's a Navstar not a Cummings.

I had a Serrano with the Navistar . Hated it. The computer is set to detune the engine when it hot outside . When it is hot you have no power. By the way, we liked the Thor Serrano . I wanted the longer bed and the washer and dryer.

HDRoadking 10-08-2014 08:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidki (Post 2261713)
Bob, thanks for that Info, I found a 2014 for sale at Lazy Daze and sent the link to my wife to look at, but, it shows that one is in the process of a sale but I'll continue to look,

The slide on the 33.2 is quite large, does it have 2 or 3 rails? how has it been working for you?

Bob: two rails, but you need to make sure they are steel, not the original aluminum. The 2015 units now have three swintek motors to move the slide. Mine only has two of those.

That fuel mileage is impressive (and you said you got that towing the Jeep)? That is amazing.. with out the Jeep what would you get?

Bob: I don't think the jeep drags the mileage down much. It is completely behind the coach. It is a Wrangler (2 door) not an unlimited so it is lighter. I don't even know it is back there.

Now sure what you mean on Diesel 2 vs "bio additives"

Bob: #2 diesel is purely diesel. Bio-diesel can have up to 20% French fry grease or what ever they are using. My first Rv was a Winnebago Via on a sprinter chassis. It had a Front end Mercedes diesel and if you put Bio in it the warranty was voided. That is one reason we traded. You can put Bio in the Freightliner and not void the warranty, but you need to change the fuel filters more often.

I need to do quite a bit reading on the chassis and engine I guess, there are quite a few configurations that are offered by Thor and others and even more important the transmission.

We have built an RV garage that with the internal size of 35' I wonder if I could squeeze the 33.2 in to it ... if Not I'd have to have the guy that built the garage come back and extend it one panel.

Bob: Too close for comfort. The coach is 34' 6". Add a tow bar and you are already sticking out.

I had also asked if you could let me know what your standard services are running for you? I guess in most cases it would be a oil change and that would be about it? Do you have that done at a freight liner center?

Bob : I have only had one service. I did that at about 7,500 and they did the 5,000 mile and the 10,000 at the same time. I do not need another until 17,500. Call a Freightliner shop that does motor homes and they can tell you. You keep talking Lazydays and I am going to assume Tampa. The Tampa Freightliner is where Lazydays turns to when they have a problem.

I have not found another diesel in this size and price range ( I think you mentioned that)..... it is pretty impressive and worth exploring more. I did look at the Tiffin Breeze 32, it is a nice coach but 19" wheels and a custom chassis I'm concerned about repairs and upkeep. I think the Tiffin is only a 240 hp engine and I thin it's a Navstar not a Cummings.

Bob: We were looking at a Breeze and opted for the Palazzo. NAVSTAR with Tiffen chassis vs Freightliner. Cummings transmission in the Palazzo. We went with Thor. I have a friend who's Phaeton spent two months in Red Bay, Al for a slide issue, so it can happen to any of them.

Dave,

The answers are built into your quote so I don't forget anything.


Sent from my iPad using iRV2 - RV Forum

HDRoadking 10-08-2014 08:40 PM
Thor quality control issues - response from the Director
 
Dave,

Went back and read my post. I should have done that before hitting send. I meant Freightliner chassis with a Cummings engine and an Allison transmission. There are Freightliner shops everywhere.




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Jlowers 10-09-2014 01:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alindsay (Post 2069878)
I received a call today from the Director of Customer Service at Thor. This is in response to my letter outlining my issue and frustration as outlined on this thread - https://www.irv2.com/forums/f281/im-n...on-202903.html

It may fall on deaf ears but he actually asked me to outline all of the qc problems I've seen since taking delivery of my coach and email them to him so he can address these with the production staff.

Since my initial coolant problem, I've found some little quirks that really should have been caught and better yet, should never have happened to my coach.

I am asking each of you to list some areas of concern and I'll include them in my response back to him. I'm not wanting this to be a "Bash Thor" thread but a "what can Thor do to improve delivered coaches" thread.

I'll start:

1) Better document the Sat Prep and if you put a cap with a sign that says Coax cables are below, then put coax cables below.

2) Screw in the valances with a minimal number of screws. Mine had several screws into air - the builder should know where the proper place to screw into is

3) If screws heads are torqued off, fix it and don't deliver the coach that way

4) Better documentation - this goes for most all of the systems in the coach. This documentation should be coach specific and available online for all.

5) Provide owners better assistance with wiring diagrams / schematics of the items on our coaches.

6) Treat the build of the coach like your loved ones will own it. Instead of a half-a$$ed approach to building the unit, take care and have pride in what you build.

7) Understand that current Palazzo owners are the best sales people for future owners. We see and visit with a lot of people as we use our coaches...make us happy and you will sell more units.

8) If a drawer or cabinet is supposed to stay closed while driving, design a way it will stay closed.

Hopefully everyone can contribute their thoughts and future coaches will have improved quality.

Thanks,

Allan
0) Lose the Schwintek slide mechanisms. I've looked at three 2014 Palazzos and a 2013 and those slides are a problem waiting to happen. Supporting a full length slide on four 2-inch aluminum rails demonstrates a severe lack of engineering knowledge to me. At least make them out of steel. Then they could better support the weight and grinding of the gear mechanisms while saving the company money. Finding a Schwintek slide on any coach is a deal-killer for me!

Don Voyage 10-09-2014 04:32 AM
My Palazzo.
 
My Palazzo is coming up on a year old. I have 14,300 miles on it. Currently at Goshen Thor rally after a little over a 3 month tour with coach. I tow a VW Passat on a car tow dolly behind coach. I avg 10.75 to 13.2 miles per gallon with various road conditions. 9.2-9.8 miles per gallon in the Yellowstone and Grand Teton Mountains. This is at 62-62 mph, ecomony mode button lite up on shifter.

ALL coaches have problems some don't. But usually when you get all of the bugs out it's great.

Slides with 2 or with the third stabilizer track at top only have the two (2) motors. Where one poster stated their were three (3) motors is totally wrong. I have had one slide shimmed and the side gaskets replaced with the wider ones. But never had a problem so far. Remember, the manufacturer states that coach MUST BE LEVEL and always go all the way out or in. Never half way because it can cause a drive motor sync problem and "Rack" slide. Problems with this Schwintek/Lippart systems can be found on other brand of coaches and truck campers. It's all in the user procedure and with the larger slides having the 500-1 motors with a steel drive shaft not alum.

I too had problems finding the Sat wire above driving area under the vent cap and sticker. Found out at Elhart they stopped the Sat wire prep to that area 7-2013, my coach was make 10/2013. The shop's manufacturing paperwork wasn't updated to delete this sticker and vent cap placement. Thor then sealed up the area and mounted my auto antenna mid coach between the two a/c units. I am happy with their service on this item.

I bought this coach after the choice was Fleetwood Excusion and Tiffin Open Road Red. My Palazzo had more stuff that was standard and optional on the other two. They all used the same chassis.

Thor is striving and slowly getting there with customer service. If I ever do have a slide malfunction I want only Thor Service techs to repair either in Elkhart or they will fly down their techs to fix your coach at a local dealers shop. I've heard if the problem is too large they will fly down a transporter and drive it back to the factory and return it. Read the posts on quality and service times for the other two coaches I considered and you will find they all are about the same.

The selling dealer gets paid to perform a second functional and visual inspection of their coaches. I know they do not do that and just pocket the money. The screws and sawdust and other items is BOTH parties responsibility!

FYI: At this Thor sponsored rally, one of the benefits of attending they will fix up to three items on any coach for price of parts only. This is good for coaches out of warranty. I plan on attending all of Thor sponsored Rally's in the future not only for possible service but the other coach owners here are great to meet.

So far I am satisfied with my coach. Just had to post my 2 cents.

Don

mikelm48 10-09-2014 05:04 AM
Not that I have any skin in the game, just browsing, but with the QC complaints, has anyone looked at the Newmar Ventanna LE. It starts at $215K and has Comfort Drive in 2015 with 340 HP ISB. I'm sure that that it may have less options on it, but I think you will find the quality and customer service are very good. And I think you are still looking at a 25% to 30% discount possible.

Butte64 10-09-2014 05:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jlowers (Post 2261980)
0) Lose the Schwintek slide mechanisms. I've looked at three 2014 Palazzos and a 2013 and those slides are a problem waiting to happen. Supporting a full length slide on four 2-inch aluminum rails demonstrates a severe lack of engineering knowledge to me. At least make them out of steel. Then they could better support the weight and grinding of the gear mechanisms while saving the company money. Finding a Schwintek slide on any coach is a deal-killer for me!

The weight is not on the slide rails. There are rollers on the floor that support the weight. The rails that are visible are only for moving the slide. The motor is at the top rail and a rod is connected to the gear on the bottom rail to drive it.

There are several brands that use the Schwintek slide system. I was just at an FMCA rally and coaches on display from 5 brands. Some use Schwintek only on smaller slides. I agree that full length slides with Schwintek do not make sense.

Spacing is critical. If the gap between gears and rail is too much the gear does not engage properly and may slip. Leveling is crucial to maintaining proper slide operation.

ChallengerRN 10-09-2014 08:49 AM
I think it's just too much mass for the schwintec system to operate unless everything is perfect.

The same system on the smaller slide outs is working fine. I've heard very little issues with the smaller slides industry wide.

Russell

Jlowers 10-09-2014 12:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Butte64 (Post 2262071)
The weight is not on the slide rails. There are rollers on the floor that support the weight. The rails that are visible are only for moving the slide. The motor is at the top rail and a rod is connected to the gear on the bottom rail to drive it.

There are several brands that use the Schwintek slide system. I was just at an FMCA rally and coaches on display from 5 brands. Some use Schwintek only on smaller slides. I agree that full length slides with Schwintek do not make sense.

Spacing is critical. If the gap between gears and rail is too much the gear does not engage properly and may slip. Leveling is crucial to maintaining proper slide operation.
Yes, the slide will rest on the floor rollers when the slide is closed. When fully open however, most of the slide is hanging outside of the coach as it should. This causes the bottom edge of the slide opening to become a fulcrum, translating forces to the top. So when the slide motors are operating, they have to contend with the weight of the slide as well as simply overcoming inertia. That's why most other slide mechanisms have steel scissors underneath the slide or cable supports at the top. Schwintek also uses a rack and pinion design. This works well for low-load / high-speed operations like steering a sports car, but for a heavy slow-moving slide, a worm gear or jack screw mechanism is more suitable. Using a steel pinion in an aluminum rack will cause the gears to jump the rails as soon as it grinds away enough metal. This is inevitable with enough use. The result is that the slide will become misaligned and stick in the opening.


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