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-   -   NEED HELP 2014 Dodge Ram 2500 5.7 V8 (https://www.irv2.com/forums/f45/need-help-2014-dodge-ram-2500-5-7-v8-211883.html)

gggplaya 07-18-2014 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimcumminsw (Post 2143027)
SmokeyWren; would you agree that the authors of SAE: J2807 Towing Standard knows what to include and not include in this standard. Since the authors are vehicle engineers at the various manufacturing plants in the US. At least this was the way when we authored articles and standards for SAE in the heavy equipment industry.

This is a synopsis from the STANDARD which Ram has included in the article for their press release; and I quote

"The SAE J2807 towing standard outlines dynamic and performance criteria as it relates to a given vehicle. Examples within the standard include a number of tests while towing: 0-60 MPH time allowance, tackling the notorious Davis Dam Grade while maintaining no less than 40 MPH for single-rear-wheel trucks and 35 MPH for dual-rear-wheel trucks, a constant radius under steer test while increasing speed and a sway maneuver using aggressive steering input. The purpose is to put all trucks through the schedule of tests in which operators will likely see in the real world. SAE standards have existed in a number of other areas including engine torque and horsepower. Ram Truck is the first to adopt the official towing standard for ½-ton, ¾-ton and 1-ton trucks."

Where in this synopsis is the mention of payload capacity for towing?

Ram even states in their "RAM BODY BULIDER'S GUIDE" in foot note three and I quote” Payload and maximum trailer weights are mutually exclusive. Additionally, the GAWR’s and the GVWR should never be exceeded.”

To me this means that the frame of the truck and suspension of the truck is carrying the load not the pick-up bed of the truck. When you do a force diagram of the mass (trailer load and or tongue weight) the frame and pinning components are under load not the bed.

Jim W.

You're completely missing the point about payload. The ram 1500 has an extra squishy soft rear coil spring suspension. It also happens to be the most comfortable 1/2 pickup in america because of this. However, if you're deciding to load it up with twice it's payload capacity, then you're also going to heavily compress the rear suspension and with that lost much of your weight over the front tires. There goes your handling and steering stability, you'll never tow 9,200lbs like that. Then of course, you also have the components like the rear axle, and various links in the rear suspension that were not sized to accomodate twice the payload rating. You're asking for a breakdown driving down the road. The 2500 has a coil spring rear suspension now too, but it has much larger diameter springs, larger axle, and suspension links. All of which adds weight, but will actually be able to handle the 2000lbs of pin weight. The new 2014 2500's regardless of engine has a 11.5" axle, meanwhile the 1500 has a 9.25".

Those SAE standards don't talk about payload, just towing. That's because of the vast differences in suspension design and performance intent. There's no criteria for sag factor, which drastically changes towing stability. Instead the rating assumes you're not going over the GVWR or GAWR.

Also, those ratings are absolute maximum ratings. Maintaining 40mph???? That shows you how far these ratings go. I would never encourage a person to buy a vehicle that had to struggle to maintain 40mph with their intended application. They are the absolute maximum ratings, people should purchase vehicles well under those ratings.

In any context, a 2000lbs pin weight would put the RAM 1500 significantly over it's GVWR and put all that over the rear axle, putting it significantly outside it's design criteria. You're asking for things to break at that point.

Highway 4x4 07-18-2014 06:32 PM

The only difference between the 2014 2500 and 3500 Ram is the springs.

JIMNLIN 07-18-2014 09:15 PM

Quote:

The 5th wheel is 8870lbs dry, 35'10 & I don't know the pin weight. We're not dead set on this camper but we are looking for something similar.
The Coachman Chaparral 279 BHS shows a 11200 GVWR. The 2500 Ram won't have any issues carrying the trailer pin weight but as highway 4x4 says you won't be happy camper pulling that much weight with the little smallblock 5.7 hemi .

I would look at a 2500 with the 6.4 Hemi which has another 800-1000 lb load capacity above the 5.7 and has tow rating up to 15k-16k lbs depending on truck selections.
The 6.4 Hemi is rated at 410 hp and 430 torque which is close in towing performance to the big block GM 8.1 and Fords V10 gas engines.

Owner on another RV website report fuel milage in the upper teens when running empty with the 6.4 cylinder deactivation system.

Check the 2500 6.4 hemi out.

gggplaya 07-18-2014 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Highway 4x4 (Post 2143776)
The only difference between the 2014 2500 and 3500 Ram is the springs.

No, the new ram 2500 and 3500 rams are drastically different in rear suspension design. The 2500's have a rear coil spring setup, the 3500 has a leafspring arrangement.

2014 Ram Heavy Duty: projections and predictions

jimcumminsw 07-19-2014 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gggplaya (Post 2143235)
You're completely missing the point about payload. The ram 1500 has an extra squishy soft rear coil spring suspension. It also happens to be the most comfortable 1/2 pickup in america because of this. However, if you're deciding to load it up with twice it's payload capacity, then you're also going to heavily compress the rear suspension and with that lost much of your weight over the front tires. There goes your handling and steering stability, you'll never tow 9,200lbs like that. Then of course, you also have the components like the rear axle, and various links in the rear suspension that were not sized to accomodate twice the payload rating. You're asking for a breakdown driving down the road. The 2500 has a coil spring rear suspension now too, but it has much larger diameter springs, larger axle, and suspension links. All of which adds weight, but will actually be able to handle the 2000lbs of pin weight. The new 2014 2500's regardless of engine has a 11.5" axle, meanwhile the 1500 has a 9.25".

Those SAE standards don't talk about payload, just towing. That's because of the vast differences in suspension design and performance intent. There's no criteria for sag factor, which drastically changes towing stability. Instead the rating assumes you're not going over the GVWR or GAWR.

Also, those ratings are absolute maximum ratings. Maintaining 40mph???? That shows you how far these ratings go. I would never encourage a person to buy a vehicle that had to struggle to maintain 40mph with their intended application. They are the absolute maximum ratings, people should purchase vehicles well under those ratings.

In any context, a 2000lbs pin weight would put the RAM 1500 significantly over it's GVWR and put all that over the rear axle, putting it significantly outside it's design criteria. You're asking for things to break at that point.

As I retired hydraulic/structural engineer pay load does not mean anything to me.
What will matter are the GVWR, GARW, tire max loading and the GCVW along with trailer axle weights. When I did a free body diagram of the loading on my 3/4 ton truck diesel; I did insured that the I knew all of the required mass (weight) numbers.
I did this by loading my truck and trailer and scaling them on a certified CAT scale. Nowhere in the free body diagram did payload come in to play. What did was the pin mass and the downward force applied to the hitch and how this mass was supported. I insure that none of these numbers where exceed. And will tow my fiver with easy an has provided excellent service to me and my wife.

Jim W.

Highway 4x4 07-19-2014 12:23 PM

You're right gggplaya, it's the springs. Coil on a 2500 and leaf on a 3500. Also, the front is the same radius arm setup for 2x4 and 4x4. I was a little hesitant on the rear coils but even with the shell camper and stuff, the close to 1000 pound tongue on the TT, it handles it all just fine with a better ride than the leafs.

Mekanic 07-19-2014 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Highway 4x4 (Post 2144739)
You're right gggplaya, it's the springs. Coil on a 2500 and leaf on a 3500. Also, the front is the same radius arm setup for 2x4 and 4x4. I was a little hesitant on the rear coils but even with the shell camper and stuff, the close to 1000 pound tongue on the TT, it handles it all just fine with a better ride than the leafs.

I looked under my coworkers 2014, Ram 2500 and it has that coil spring rear suspension.
it look a lot like the suspension design that is under many Jeeps of the90s and what the wrangler has had on it rear end since 1997. of course all of the components are much sturdier for 3/4 ton truck loads.

I have never seen one But I'd like to see what I heard was a option and that is a Air ride suspension on a later 3/4 ton dodge truck.

fvstringpicker 07-19-2014 07:28 PM

I read a bunch of post about towing capacity before buying my truck. I found out then I wanted a rig where I didn't have to micromanage every pound I considered adding when I hooked up. When it got where you had to consider the true weight driver beyond 150 lbs, a small tool box in the bed and the weight of a tank of gas I thought, "hell with this, I'm going to get something that will do the job without having to worry about this crap" :thumb:

Highway 4x4 07-19-2014 08:52 PM

Good Call Picker. The days pulling whatever you pull will be much better. I like the Ram and I have my reasons but get a 3/4 ton diesel anything and it will pull any bumper tow TT out there.

gggplaya 07-19-2014 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimcumminsw (Post 2144425)
As I retired hydraulic/structural engineer pay load does not mean anything to me.
What will matter are the GVWR, GARW, tire max loading and the GCVW along with trailer axle weights. When I did a free body diagram of the loading on my 3/4 ton truck diesel; I did insured that the I knew all of the required mass (weight) numbers.
I did this by loading my truck and trailer and scaling them on a certified CAT scale. Nowhere in the free body diagram did payload come in to play. What did was the pin mass and the downward force applied to the hitch and how this mass was supported. I insure that none of these numbers where exceed. And will tow my fiver with easy an has provided excellent service to me and my wife.

Jim W.

I'm an engineer too, and i work in ag equipment design, very large equipment.

You do realize that "PAYLOAD" is your GVWR-CurbWeight+150lbs driver = payload.

Your "Pin Mass" and the downward force applied to the hitch, is simply the "pin weight"?? This is the weight that your vehicle must support, mainly with the rear axle, frame, suspension components, tires etc... You can verify this by driving over some truck scales, they are all split and will tell you how much weight is on the truck, and on the axles of your trailer.

The 1500 ram has a low GVWR, therefore a very low payload rating, 1000-1400lbs depending on configuration. Taking it 10% over the design spec is one thing, but over 2000lbs of pin weight is asking for a breakdown, poor handling, and an accident waiting to happen.

Highway 4x4 07-20-2014 12:05 AM

Anyone towing a 5th with a pin weight of 2000 pounds with any 1/2 ton truck is making a big mistake. I don't care what mods you've done or how you think it will do it, it's just plain overloaded.

Esdharbour22 07-20-2014 06:56 AM

THANK YOU!!! To everyone for their input. It was all very helpful. So we decided against the Ram & ended up buying a 2015 Chevy Silverado 2500 HD 6.0 LB. We've narrowed the camper search down to 2 different models. Just gotta wait til Monday for the dealership to open & then it's number time.

fvstringpicker 07-20-2014 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Highway 4x4 (Post 2145608)
I don't care what mods you've done or how you think it will do it, it's just plain overloaded.

I learned early in life to get something you can work with, not work on.

gggplaya 07-21-2014 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esdharbour22 (Post 2145734)
THANK YOU!!! To everyone for their input. It was all very helpful. So we decided against the Ram & ended up buying a 2015 Chevy Silverado 2500 HD 6.0 LB. We've narrowed the camper search down to 2 different models. Just gotta wait til Monday for the dealership to open & then it's number time.

That's a good truck, has rear leaf springs still i believe. So payload is nice and high at 3300lbs which should be enough for you and your family.

The 6.0 engine was always designed to be a workhorse, but fuel economy wasn't always the best. However in 2010, they added variable valve timing and various changed to the airflow design in the head. But down on power and torque compared to the 6.4 hemi.

Just curious what the 6.0 gets for mpg these days. Please report back with the mileage.


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