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GoLeafsGo 12-22-2017 03:42 PM

Check My Numbers Please
 
Tow Vehicle:

2013 Toyota Land Cruiser
GVWR = 7385 lbs
GAWR = 7895 lbs
Curb Weight = 6260 (LC, full tank of gas, and me)

Trailer:

2018 ORV Creekside 21 DBS
Dry Weight = 5295 lbs
Hitch Weight = 695 lbs
*these are specs on manufacturer website, unit not built yet

GAWR minus Curb Weight leaves 1635 lbs for hitch, wife, and kids?

325BH 12-22-2017 04:10 PM

Check My Numbers Please
 
Using your numbers, the GVWR is 7,385 and the actual is 6260. I would argue you need to forget about the “curb weight “ spec and actually weigh your Land Cruiser, however... if we use the 6,260 number, that leaves 1,125 for hitch, tongue weight, wife kids, and anything else you want to bring in the truck.

Without actually weighing, i would use 15% of the trailer’s GVWR to determine tongue weight. Online, i see 6,995 as max trailer weight. Using 15% for tongue weight, that is 1,050 lbs.

1,125 minus 1,050 leaves you with 75 lbs for wife, kids, dog, gear etc. That is using the “curb weight “ number which I would bet is not entirely accurate. You really need to weigh your Land Cruiser.

GoLeafsGo 12-22-2017 04:25 PM

6260 is the weight of the LC with a full tank of gas and me sitting in it.

"Curb Weight = 6260 (LC, full tank of gas, and me)"

I filled up the tank and took it to a scale today.

I am so confused...doesn't GAWR suggest that the axles can handle 7895? Why the 500 lb discrepancy?

Mich F 12-22-2017 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoLeafsGo (Post 3956169)
Tow Vehicle:



GAWR minus Curb Weight leaves 1635 lbs for hitch, wife, and kids?

No - you want to deduct your curb weight (assuming you had it weighed and that is a real world number) from your GVWR, not your GAWR. For whatever reason or reasons (tires , suspension, drive train?) your GVWR is considerably less than your GAWR.

(Didn't see your post #3 before I posted)

JohnBoyToo 12-22-2017 04:43 PM

You should have individual wheel weights since one side or corner could be much heavier...
but barring that, you at least need individual axle ratings to compare to each of your axle weights as a starter... i.e. you should have two GAWR ratings.

You are correct - your GVWR minus actual weight is your Cargo Carrying Capacity... BUT, you will have to include tongue weight once the rv is hooked up...

weght one time with just the tow vehicle and one time with the trailer to know what your true tongue weight is...

9 times out of 10, the mfg specs are wrong... in your example, a 6000 lb tt will probably have a TW of about 15 to 20% of the weight, so more than 695... good luck !

GoLeafsGo 12-22-2017 06:46 PM

I stopped at a Toyota dealership on the way home and looked at a 2017 Tundra. According to the sticker on the pillar the Tundra’s GVWR is 7,200 lbs. That’s 185 lbs LESS than the Land Cruiser!!!

Am I to understand that a 25 foot travel trailer (ladder to hitch) with a max weight of 6995 lbs can’t legally be pulled by a Tundra? It requires an HD diesel????

xrated 12-22-2017 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoLeafsGo (Post 3956340)
I stopped at a Toyota dealership on the way home and looked at a 2017 Tundra. According to the sticker on the pillar the Tundra’s GVWR is 7,200 lbs. That’s 185 lbs [B]less[B]than the Land Cruiser!!!

Am I to understand that a 25 foot travel trailer (ladder to hitch) with a max weight of 6995 lbs can’t legally be pulled by a Tundra? It requires an HD diesel????

It doesn't require a HD Diesel, but it WILL require that you have enough payload capacity to handle the 13 -15% of the trailer GVWR tongue weight. There are plenty of 3/4T trucks out there that aren't diesel....but have large displacement V8s and the needed payload capacity to do your towing. Trust me, it's a nightmare trying to tow a trailer that has the truck overloaded and one you will not enjoy. Finding a truck with the sufficient amount of payload capacity will make you... :D

GoLeafsGo 12-22-2017 07:04 PM

Problem is I don’t want to get rid of the Land Cruiser as the whole point of getting this trailer was to get to places where we could do some off roading. Don’t really want the long wheelbase of a pickup.

Now I need to try to get my deposit back from the RV dealership...that should be a blast.

I know I should have figured this out before, but I wish they checked the numbers before selling me something I can’t legally tow. They’re supposed to be the experts.

aether_one 12-22-2017 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoLeafsGo (Post 3956362)
Problem is I don’t want to get rid of the Land Cruiser as the whole point of getting this trailer was to get to places where we could do some off roading. Don’t really want the long wheelbase of a pickup.

Now I need to try to get my deposit back from the RV dealership...that should be a blast.

I know I should have figured this out before, but I wish they checked the numbers before selling me something I can’t legally tow. They’re supposed to be the experts.

No, they're supposed to be the salesmen. No way they can be experts on every possible tow vehicle out there. It's up to the buyer to do their own due diligence.

I don't know where you got a GAWR that was higher than the GVWR. GAWR is for an (as in one) axle. You have a front GAWR and a rear GAWR.

Your GVWR minus your loaded curb weight (including wife, kids, gas, dogs, supplies in the vehicle) will show you what tongue weight you can accommodate, but you also need to know the "Combined" weight rating of your tow vehicle which is the sum of the weight of the tow vehicle and the weight of the trailer.

GoLeafsGo 12-22-2017 08:12 PM

Okay, here are all the numbers on the Toyota:

GVWR = 7,385
GAWR (front) = 3,595
GAWR (rear) = 4,300
GCWR = 14,400
TWR = 8,100
Unbraked TWR = 1,000
Recommended tongue weight by Toyota = 9 - 11%
Curb Weight = 6,260 (weighed today with me and full tank)

Estimated numbers on the trailer:

Dry Weight = 5,295
Hitch Dry Weight = 695
Maximum Trailer Weight = 6,995

Dropthejacks 12-22-2017 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoLeafsGo (Post 3956362)
I know I should have figured this out before, but I wish they checked the numbers before selling me something I can’t legally tow. They’re supposed to be the experts.

Rule #1 of buying an RV-Do not believe the RV salesman when he says, "Oh yea, you can tow this one. No problem." They do not care once you sign the dotted line and leave the lot.

Rule #2 of buying an RV-Do not believe the truck salesman when he says, "Oh yea, you can tow a house with this thing." They do not care once you sign the dotted line and leave the lot.

The Land Cruiser is a cool vehicle, and awesome for doing some off-roading, but it wasn't really designed as a towing vehicle. The Tundra does good, but you can't really expect it to do anymore than any other 1500 pickup, and most 1500s would be maxed out and pushed to hook up to a 7K lb TT and handle it without it being a white-knuckle experience. 7K+ is getting into 2500 territory unless you are talking about a specialty vehicle like the Ford TowMax. But there you are spending so much money you could have bought the 2500 and gotten more payload. The tow rating on the Land Cruiser is only 8500 lbs, and you need to drop about 20% below that for safety, handling and stopping, which leaves around 6800 lbs for the RV. Gonna have to back off that TT weight, or head to a "Big 3" dealership for more muscle.

GoLeafsGo 12-22-2017 08:52 PM

So the difference between 6,800 and 6,995 requires going to a 3/4 ton pickup?

I used the LC to tow a Nash with the same max weight (7,000) and a dry hitch weight of 420 from Glacier to Vancouver Island to the Tetons to the desert and everywhere between , over 20,000 miles, with no issues at all. Hard to swallow that a tongue weight difference of 250 lbs suddenly puts me in some sort of danger zone, that’s all.

And ORV clearly states that the Creekside class is designed for SUVs and 1/2 ton pickups.

Oldelevatorman 12-22-2017 09:03 PM

Check My Numbers Please
 
Forget about dry weights, they are useless. You're not towing an empty trailer!

GoLeafsGo 12-22-2017 09:19 PM

Ugh, I’m just listing whatever numbers I can find, I know what dry weight means.

GoLeafsGo 12-22-2017 09:24 PM

Here is some more information:

The Toyota numbers assume stock configuration. I upgraded the shocks to HD and have 10 ply E rated tires, not the tires it came with.

I’m also looking into re-gearing From 3.909 to 4.88 and installing upgraded brakes.

SmokeyWren 12-22-2017 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoLeafsGo (Post 3956485)
And ORV clearly states that the Creekside class is designed for SUVs and 1/2 ton pickups.

ORV (and all other RV manufacturers) stretch the truth. You can tow a so-called "half-ton towable" RV trailer with a half-ton vehicle only if there are no options on the vehicle except those required to tow a trailer, and if there is absolutely no weight in the truck except a skinny driver.

The facts (not the hype) of RV towing are provided by the certified automated truck (CAT) scale. Load your LC with everybody and everything that will be in it when towing. No, not with just you - with everybody and everything. Drive to a truck stop that has a CAT scale, fill up with gas, then weigh the wet and loaded SUV.

Subtract the wet and loaded weight of the SUV from the GVWR of the SUV and the answer is the payload capacity available for hitch weight. Subtract 100 pounds for a good WD hitch from the payload capacity available for hitch weight and the answer is the payload capacity available for trailer tongue weight (TW).

Divide the payload capacity available for TW by 0.13 (13%) and the answer is the max GVWR of any TT you want to consider buying. If the trailer specs do not include GVWR, then add dry weight plus cargo carrying capacity (CCC) to get GVWR.

Quote:

...doesn't GAWR suggest that the axles can handle 7895?
Axles yes, but there is a lot more involved with towing and hauling than just the axles of the tow vehicle. Weight ratings of springs, shocks, and the other parts of the suspension. Vehicle braking capacity. Frame strength. Etc. GVWR is your limiter, not combined GAWR.

Quote:

Why the 500 lb discrepancy?
You would probably have to be a professional engineer (PE) in chassis engineering to arrive at a good answer. But if you dig into the engineering specs of your vehicle and determine how Toy came up with the GVWR, the answer is probably there.

keymastr 12-23-2017 12:30 AM

The ratings for individual components such as axles and wheels always add up to slightly more than the overall GVWR. All manufacturers do it not just Toyota.

Lots of vehicles seem like they would be suitable tow vehicles until you run the numbers. There are some people with trailers as heavy as yours being towed by Ram 1500s That have less payload than your LC. They get away with it because they have a much longer wheelbase. Short wheelbase is your biggest limiting factor in my opinion. I would not bother spending a ton on gear changes, power is not the problem. Stability will be with 1000 pounds of tongue weight,(100 pounds for the hitch itself), and whatever passengers you have in the LC.

The tongue weight is either very close to or over the capacity of the stock receiver as well so you might look at upgrading that. It should have a rating stamped on it somewhere.

Your LC should have a yellow loading sticker probably on the drivers door pillar that shows the actual payload that particular vehicle had as it left the factory. If you added any racks, lightbars, heavier tires, off-road jacks, winches etc. the weight of those things also must be subtracted from the cargo capacity on the sticker. It will say "passengers and cargo not to exceed xxxx".

You may have been over your cargo capacity with your old trailer too. Lots of people do. It works right up until it doesn't. Someone pulls out in front of you on a highway, a curve is sharper than expected, a steer tire has a sudden blowout. Rare things maybe but they do happen. Ratings are not for sunny days when everything goes perfectly.

xrated 12-23-2017 01:56 AM

LC.....GVWR 7385 Curb weight 6260 Maximum amount of leftover weight to hit the GVWR is 1125 lbs....also known as your payload capacity. And keep in mind, some manufacturers include in the payload capacity a 150 lb driver and a full tank of fuel. Some don't even include a 150 lb driver....just the full tank of fuel. So that 1125 could be accurate or is could actually be less (your weight)

So looking at the 6995 GVWR of the trailer (round it off to 7K), at 13% of that number for a legitimate tongue weight, you are looking at 909 lbs. And keep in mind that 13% is not a "set in stone" number, but should be fairly close to what your real world could be. So that leaves you with 215 lbs for everything else that needs to go in the L.C.......so to say the very least...you are on the edge of your payload capacity even if you don't add anything else to the L.C.
If you include passenger, supplies, food, pets, whatever you decide to take with you, you will most likely be Over the payload capacity. Personally, I would not like to be in an "on the very edge" situation with my towing setup/rig. And in fact, I was in that very same spot earlier this year, and it was not a pleasant experience. My F250 CC 4x4 Diesel truck with a 10K GVWR simply just wasn't enough to safely tow the Toy Hauler I have without adding more and more weight to get the proper amount of tongue weight, which then put the truck over the GVWR. Simple answer, more truck. Of course that wasn't an inexpensive answer, but it was THE answer.

In your case, as someone stated above, you either need more tow vehicle for that trailer or you need less trailer for that tow vehicle.

GoLeafsGo wrote:
Quote:

The Toyota numbers assume stock configuration. I upgraded the shocks to HD and have 10 ply E rated tires, not the tires it came with.

I’m also looking into re-gearing From 3.909 to 4.88 and installing upgraded brakes.
Adding and or changing those items you mentioned will not increase your available payload even one lb.....sorry. They are all money spent on items that will not help your situation of being right at and most likely overloaded.

And if it's any consolation (which I'm pretty sure it isn't), as stated above, I ended up having to get rid of a very nice truck with low miles for being 6 year old, and get one that had a lot more capability for towing my T.H. Granted, I went "overkill" in my choice, but I now have a truck that I can use, without having to change trucks again if I would decide to buy a bigger trailer/5ver in the future. The best part right now is....no more worries about being on the ragged edge of ANY of the weight capacities for me, and a very easy towing experience every time I take it out

GoLeafsGo 12-23-2017 07:16 AM

Thanks. I appreciate the sympathetic breaking of bad news! I definitely had trouble sleeping last night due to the worry.

JohnBoyToo 12-23-2017 07:36 AM

1 Attachment(s)
No worries, we've all done that bit of learning :)
some faster than others as shown in my evolution:
the time between the first pic and 2nd was 30 years or so,
the 2nd to third was 2 years,
then one year,
then 3 years....

I'm trying to stick with this combo :)

xrated 12-23-2017 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoLeafsGo (Post 3956747)
Thanks. I appreciate the sympathetic breaking of bad news! I definitely had trouble sleeping last night due to the worry.

I honestly do feel your pain. We had talked about getting a truck and Toy Hauler for several years. Our plan was to buy the truck, get it paid off, then buy the T.H. The problem with that thinking was I thought at that time, a 3/4T truck should pull about anything I wanted to buy...T.H. wise. After all, it was a 3/4T Diesel and hey, "It will pull anything"! I had no idea about GVWRs, Payload, GAWRs, Combined ratings, etc. So fast forward to Oct. 2016 and the hunt for a T.H. started. It didn't take long for me to realize that my paltry 2148 lbs of payload capacity wasn't going to work for a 38' 5ver T.H. that I wanted to get. In fact, the pin weight on that trailer was going to overload my truck by 800-1000 lbs. So I ended up buying a 34 1/2' tow behind that I'm happy with. Come to find out (I didn't research enough.....AGAIN) when you start loading toys in the back, it starts taking away from your tongue weight, to the point that I was so light up front that the T.H. was swaying all over the road. The solution.....keep adding more weight to the front of the trailer to re-establish proper tongue weight. That plan was starting to work pretty well until I got to the point that enough tongue weight up front was to the point I was at, or slightly over on the truck GVWR.....and I still didn't have enough weight.....it was still wanting to sway a little. I ended up with trading the F250 (the truck that I thought would be my last truck....and paid off) and buying a 2016 F350 Crew Cab 4x4 Dually. Plenty of truck (overkill in fact for my T.H.), and plenty of room for any future T.H. or 5ver that I would want. So yes, I feel your pain and I'm sorry you are going through this, but remember, there are solutions, ones that will work for you, but you have to be willing to and open to change....just as I was. And the ironic thing is NOW, I have a truck that I could have easily towing that original 38' 5ver that I wanted in the beginning, with absolutely no weight capacity issues whatsoever....in any of the weight capacity categories.....Live and Learn I guess....and that is what we are all trying to help you with here......only you get the advantage of learning from some of our mistakes instead of having to learn them on your own and then paying the price for your mistakes. Sorry again.....I hope things work out well for you. In the scheme of things in life, it's not a BIG thing.

GoLeafsGo 12-23-2017 08:00 AM

I’m surprised by the suspension and brake upgrades not affecting GVWR.

The trailer I ordered comes with an “Off-Road X4” package which is basically a better shock absorber and a tire upgrade from C to D. When you choose that package the max weight on the trailer goes up from 6995 to 7500.

If that’s true for the trailer, why doesn’t upgrading suspension, tires, and brakes increase the weight rating for the tow vehicle?

When I look up GVWR there’s always mention of effects on tires, suspension and brakes, so it seems logical that the “sticker” GVWR is based on factory tires, suspension, and brakes, thereby meaning that upgrades to these should have at least a nominal effect.

I honestly don’t mean to come across as being argumentative, I’m just trying to make sense of the fact that the only difference between the old set up and the new is 3 less feet of trailer and 275 lbs more of dry hitch weight. (And before one more person tells me that dry hitch weight will not be the actual hitch weight: I know - I’m comparing apples to apples, as in the dry hitch weight of the old trailer vs the new).

Another factor is that the new trailer has significantly less storage, meaning the wet hitch weight will not go up as much as the old one did.

I’m sorry if my rationalizing online is annoying to anyone...you don’t need to read this thread, but for those who are kindly indulging me - I thank you.

GoLeafsGo 12-23-2017 08:04 AM

Thanks xrated and JohnBoyToo , well, too ;)

keymastr 12-23-2017 10:14 AM

The reason that upgrading the tires and suspension does nothing for your GVWR but did on your trailer is that the upgrades were done at the factory and they made the certification at that time. They are also assuming the liability of certifying that the other components will be capable of performing up to the new weight rating as well.

It is doubtful you can get the weight ratings changed. There may be a chance if you get the work done at an upfitter shop. The factory conversion vans are re-stickered that way but even if you did you would not likely gain much and you would still have a marginal tow vehicle towing a fairly heavy trailer.

Last year when I bought my ORV I had an '05 Expedition with just over 100,000 miles that I bought new and had just spent several thousand dollars changing shocks, struts, every fluid including both rear ends and the transfer case, new load range E tires etc. I was sure I could drive that truck for another 10 years, and I could, just not with the trailer I bought. The Expy had an 8600 pound towing limit and a 1460 pound cargo capacity with a full tank of fuel and a 150 pound driver. Almost identical to the F150 of that year.

The trailer had a 7500 pound GVWR which would give a max tongue weight of 975 pounds at 13%. That leaves 400 pounds of capacity left with 100 pounds for the WD hitch and the trailers gross is 1100 pounds under the max tow rating, looking good right? Nope.

Turns out that because the Expedition has independent rear suspension it is less stable towing higher weight trailers. Combine that with the relatively short wheelbase and it was a bit wiggly. Not too bad until a semi passed from the rear or it got windy. I spent hours going over the hitch setup trying different configurations, moving weight around, leaving as much stuff at home as possible, driving with empty tanks but it was no use.

If I would have bought a lighter trailer it would likely still be in my driveway. On paper it was a perfect fit, in the real world that combination just didn't work. Longer wheelbase, solid axle rather than IRS, lighter trailer, any one of those things would probably have been enough to make it work without always feeling like the trailer was in control of the tow vehicle.

Man I did not want to spend another 40,000 the same year as buying the trailer but it had to be done. Not to mention the thousands I wasted on the Expy getting it prepped for the next 100,000 miles. I keep my rigs a long time so it will be OK but the timing sucked!

Anyway, I hope you can figure out a solution that works for you. I went the crew cab 4x4 route and it gets me off road pretty good. We like to hike forest service trails and getting there is sometimes challenging and so far it works great and the difference in confidence when towing is amazing. Good luck whatever you decide.

So yes, I truly feel your pain.

xrated 12-23-2017 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoLeafsGo (Post 3956818)
Thanks xrated and JohnBoyToo , well, too ;)

You are quite welcome. I enjoy trying to help folks that may be in the same or similar situations as I was when I was completely uninformed about all the nuances of towing a heavier trailer. There was most likely "help" available for me at the time to be able to learn what I should have learned BEFORE buying my F250, but I was just to dumb to ask for it. I just thought.....3/4T Diesel....I should be good to go. But when that reality finally hit, it made me kind of immerse myself into knowing the hows and whatfors of towing correctly. I'm no expert for sure, but I sure know a whole lot more now that I did before....and I enjoy sharing that with others. Well, let's say I enjoy it somewhat, but sometimes it pains me because I know that they are in my former situation and are going to have to do something different that they don't really want to do or sometimes afford to do....and they are stuck. Anyway, I'll quit rambling and just wish you luck in getting it resolved. Holler if you have any other questions....we've got a bunch of great folks on here that love to be able to help others, and that's what it's all about for sure.

dayle1 12-23-2017 10:45 AM

Your truck can legally weigh up to its registered weight as long as you don't exceed OEM tire rating on any tire. Since very few weigh their loaded tow vehicle let alone by individual tire a GVWR lower than the total of GAWRs provides some buffer. What is your registered weight?

Old-Biscuit 12-23-2017 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoLeafsGo (Post 3956438)
Okay, here are all the numbers on the Toyota:

GVWR = 7,385
GAWR (front) = 3,595
GAWR (rear) = 4,300
GCWR = 14,400
TWR = 8,100
Unbraked TWR = 1,000
Recommended tongue weight by Toyota = 9 - 11%
Curb Weight = 6,260 (weighed today with me and full tank)

Estimated numbers on the trailer:

Dry Weight = 5,295
Hitch Dry Weight = 695
Maximum Trailer Weight = 6,995

OK........
You have gotten caught up in the GVWR 'game'
See...vehicle payload is based on the GVWR
GVWR is set by mfg. based on 'Class Rating' of vehicle & Warranty Issues
GVWR is also a 'vehicle registration' issue.....higher the GVWR the higher the registration fees

Neither of the two (GVWR/Payload) are a 'legal' issue

BUT axles/tire load ratings are and should be a concern.
FAWR on LC is 3595#
RAWR on LC is 4300#
When you weighed the LC (you/fuel) how much of that 6260 total was on each axle?

With WDH you can shift the trailer tongue weight between F/R axles

Dry trailer----5295# with a dry hitch of 695#.
That is a dry tongue weight of 13%
Using that 13% for wet tongue of trailer GVWR.....6995# X 13%=910#

So your LC should be able to handle that tongue weight even if trailer is FULLY loaded.
Yes you will be over the LC GVWR
Yes you will be over the LC Payload
BUT you will not be over LC Axle Ratings or LC GCVWR
Check what the LC Tire Max Load Ratings are .......then S/B good to go


Course I am going to get 'flamed' for not putting as much importance as some on GVWR/Payload numbers but they are NOT Legal Issues....Warranty & Registration Issues
I have a 10100# GVWR but can LEGALLY register for 12K ---just have to pay the registration fee------even the Gov/Legal Entities are NOT concerned with actual GVWR (and payload is based on that number)

:popcorn:

gimlimike 12-23-2017 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoLeafsGo (Post 3956438)
Okay, here are all the numbers on the Toyota:

GVWR = 7,385
GAWR (front) = 3,595
GAWR (rear) = 4,300
GCWR = 14,400
TWR = 8,100
Unbraked TWR = 1,000
Recommended tongue weight by Toyota = 9 - 11%
Curb Weight = 6,260 (weighed today with me and full tank)

Estimated numbers on the trailer:

Dry Weight = 5,295
Hitch Dry Weight = 695
Maximum Trailer Weight = 6,995

When I was checking out fifth wheels I took the Gvwr ( max trailer weight) added 15% for cushion to not overload truck frame,drivetrain, etc and made sure the Gvwr of the pulling vehicle exceeded that number. Usually ended up anything over 30 ft needed a 3/4 Ton with 6.6 litres + and figured a Duramax or Cummins Diesel was the only option.

Steve & Bunny 12-23-2017 11:09 AM

You will be fine.
The weight of the trailer does NOT get added to the weight of the vehicle. The tongue weight does.

GCWR is Gross Combined Weight Rating, which is the weight of the tow vehicle as loaded when towing plus the weight of the trailer as loaded for towing.

Happy Trails,
;)

SmokeyWren 12-23-2017 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old-Biscuit (Post 3957048)
OK........
You have gotten caught up in the GVWR 'game'
See...vehicle payload is based on the GVWR
GVWR is set by mfg. based on 'Class Rating' of vehicle & Warranty Issues
GVWR is also a 'vehicle registration' issue.....higher the GVWR the higher the registration fees

Neither of the two (GVWR/Payload) are a 'legal' issue

In your efforts to justify overloading a tow vehicle, you are pulling stuff out of thin air.

GVWR is established by professional engineers (PE) in chassis design.

GVWR involves more than just axle and tire ratings. GVWR also is limited by braking capacity and frame strength. You may not exceed the GAWR of your tow vehicle, but if you exceed the GVWR (or payload capacity) of your tow vehicle, you may not have enough braking capacity to stop the rig. Or your frame may not be strong enough to haul the weight the GAWR could handle.

Granted, in some cases, the manufacturer offers an option of a lower GVWR than standard because of registration fees, such as the GVWR of the F-350 SRW. But that's the exception, not the rule. Any buyer with two brain cells to rub together knows that the F-350 SRW with the optional 10,000 GVWR pkg is identical to the same truck with 11,500 GVWR.

But they never reduce GVWR because of warranty concerns or whether a truck is a class 2 or class 3 truck. The PEs would never stand for that sort of nonsense.

Quote:

Course I am going to get 'flamed' for not putting as much importance as some on GVWR/Payload numbers but they are NOT Legal Issues....
Maybe not in your jurisdiction, but they are definitely legal issue in other jurisdictions. You can get an overloaded ticket in many jurisdictions for exceeding the GVWR or payload capacity of your tow vehicle. And if you are involved in an accident where someone gets hurt or killed, a good lawyer for the other guy will assure that you can never again afford a nice RV and tow vehicle.

xrated 12-23-2017 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokeyWren (Post 3957096)
In your efforts to justify overloading a tow vehicle, you are pulling stuff out of thin air.

GVWR is established by professional engineers (PE) in chassis design.

GVWR involves more than just axle and tire ratings. GVWR also is limited by braking capacity and frame strength. You may not exceed the GAWR of your tow vehicle, but if you exceed the GVWR (or payload capacity) of your tow vehicle, you may not have enough braking capacity to stop the rig. Or your frame may not be strong enough to haul the weight the GAWR could handle.

Granted, in some cases, the manufacturer offers an option of a lower GVWR than standard because of registration fees, such as the GVWR of the F-350 SRW. But that's the exception, not the rule. Any buyer with two brain cells to rub together knows that the F-350 SRW with the optional 10,000 GVWR pkg is identical to the same truck with 11,500 GVWR.

But they never reduce GVWR because of warranty concerns or whether a truck is a class 2 or class 3 truck. The PEs would never stand for that sort of nonsense.



Maybe not in your jurisdiction, but they are definitely legal issue in other jurisdictions. You can get an overloaded ticket in many jurisdictions for exceeding the GVWR or payload capacity of your tow vehicle. And if you are involved in an accident where someone gets hurt or killed, a good lawyer for the other guy will assure that you can never again afford a nice RV and tow vehicle.

Very well stated Smokey and a better explanation than I had.

To add to what Smokey said, read ANY or EVERY owner's manual that comes with the car/truck/whatever and you will find a WARNING.......
Do NOT exceed any stated load capacity of this vehicle! It doesn't say that you get to pick and choose which one or more that it's OK to exceed for your own purpose, it says not to exceed ANY of them. There's got to be a good reason for that, and Smokey probably nailed it in the above post!

GoLeafsGo 12-23-2017 12:50 PM

The only markers on my registration are:
Class - QX
Type Veh - 120
MP - G
No idea what that means but “Unladen/G/CGW” is blank.

I’m still torn, but looking at:

2018 F-150 3.5L EcoBoost V6 SuperCrew 4x4 with 3.55

Curb = 5,016
GVWR = 7850 *
GCWR = 18,100
Payload = 2,620 *
Max Tow = 12,700

* with HD Payload Package and 18” wheels

Extended range tank (36 gallons) = 300 lbs
My family and I = 650 lbs
Hitch = 100 lbs

That should leave about 1,500 lbs for hitch weight and assorted junk like bikes and/or a canoe.

Not planning on getting a bigger trailer as the reason we sold our Nash was to go smaller.

Thoughts?

GoLeafsGo 12-23-2017 12:53 PM

Now, if money was not a consideration, I would do:

https://forum.aev-conversions.com/fo...n-jackson-hole

xrated 12-23-2017 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoLeafsGo (Post 3957193)
The only markers on my registration are:
Class - QX
Type Veh - 120
MP - G
No idea what that means but “Unladen/G/CGW” is blank.

I’m still torn, but looking at:

2018 F-150 3.5L EcoBoost V6 SuperCrew 4x4 with 3.55

Curb = 5,016
GVWR = 7850 *
GCWR = 18,100
Payload = 2,620 *
Max Tow = 12,700

* with HD Payload Package and 18” wheels

Extended range tank (36 gallons) = 300 lbs
My family and I = 650 lbs
Hitch = 100 lbs

That should leave about 1,500 lbs for hitch weight and assorted junk like bikes and/or a canoe.

Not planning on getting a bigger trailer as the reason we sold our Nash was to go smaller.

Thoughts?

From what I've seen, that one would work for you as long as you make sure to get the HD payload package. Those trucks in the F150 are petty scarce and most of the time have to be ordered to that spec. Most folks, if they figure that they are going to need that kind of payload capacity will usually just go ahead and get an F250 as long as you don't get one like I had.....with only 2148 lbs of payload capacity. Is this one that you saw in person at a dealership? or are you going by a spec sheet or brochure? Even the HD towing package will most likely have some varience between models....depending how they are equipped.....Loaded up Platinum vs. an XLT will have less payload available because of all the "goodies" it has.

dayle1 12-23-2017 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoLeafsGo (Post 3957193)
The only markers on my registration are:
Class - QX
Type Veh - 120
MP - G
No idea what that means but “Unladen/G/CGW” is blank.

Regarding the blank, best I can find is there is no requirement for a declared weight for passenger vehicles, only commercial vehicles (which includes pickup trucks that have the stock bed replaced with an aftermarket bed). Therefore you cannot be stopped for being overloaded. Clearly there is no listed weight for determining excess weight. Someone commented that a Geo Metro could be loaded to 20k lbs per axle if the tire ratings weren't exceeded. So tire rating would be the only limitation. However, for passenger vehicles, overloaded is also defined as too much cargo and/or passengers that obstruct rear view mirrors.

GoLeafsGo 12-23-2017 05:43 PM

I went to check out the Ram 2500 Cummins and the F-150.

Ram wins the “Home Improvement” Tim Allan testosterone contest hands down, but the stupid cut away in the middle seat in the back row sucks for a family of five. So annoying!

The F-150 is much more civilized and feels like a “city truck”, and puts the Ram to shame as far as technology is concerned.

You’re right - I was shocked that the GVWR of the F-150 is 350 pounds lower than the LC while the payload is only 300 lbs more. Some of that , a lot of it actually, would be eaten up by the extra 16 gallons in the tank.

They’re looking into the Heavy Duty Payload package for me. They called out their resident towing expert who literally laughed at me and said that both the F-150 on the lot and my LC would tow the trailer I bought “all day” and that “everyone is over their sticker weight”. He said that the weights on the trailer make it an ultralight and it’s meant for SUVs and 1/2 tons.

keymastr 12-23-2017 05:59 PM

Just get a 250 and be done with it. By the time you actually find the unicorn 150 with the HD payload and all the other options it will be more money than a nice 250. They are the same size and the HD package will have the same ride quality you just get 1000 pounds more payload. Bring a quad in the bed with you if you want.

The 150 you quoted above is better than the LC for towing but if you are going to spend the cash get more truck for the same money. You can get a 1 year old 250 super crew with 10,000 miles for low 30s decked out.

GoLeafsGo 12-23-2017 06:12 PM

I know this probably isn’t the right site, but is it possible to change the second row seat to have 3 full seats?

325BH 12-23-2017 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokeyWren (Post 3957096)



But they never reduce GVWR because of warranty concerns or whether a truck is a class 2 or class 3 truck. The PEs would never stand for that sort of nonsense.


Absolutely they do. An F350 SRW with 10,000 GVWR is the same truck as an F350 SRW with 11,500 GVWR.

In many cases, an F250 with 10,000 GVWR is the same truck as an F350 SRW with 11,500 GVWR.

The difference between 10,000 GVWR and 11,500 GVWR is class 2 vs class 3. It can also change registration in some locals. It can also affect CDL classes in some cases, depending on trailer.

Most of the time it is a paper difference and not a truck difference.

JIMNLIN 12-23-2017 08:28 PM

Quote:

In your efforts to justify overloading a tow vehicle, you are pulling stuff out of thin air.

GVWR is established by professional engineers (PE) in chassis design.

GVWR involves more than just axle and tire ratings. GVWR also is limited by braking capacity and frame strength. You may not exceed the GAWR of your tow vehicle, but if you exceed the GVWR (or payload capacity) of your tow vehicle, you may not have enough braking capacity to stop the rig. Or your frame may not be strong enough to haul the weight the GAWR could handle.

Granted, in some cases, the manufacturer offers an option of a lower GVWR than standard because of registration fees, such as the GVWR of the F-350 SRW. But that's the exception, not the rule. Any buyer with two brain cells to rub together knows that the F-350 SRW with the optional 10,000 GVWR pkg is identical to the same truck with 11,500 GVWR.

But they never reduce GVWR because of warranty concerns or whether a truck is a class 2 or class 3 truck. The PEs would never stand for that sort of nonsense.
Braking is not a function of a truck makers GVWR but the the truck makers individual GAWRs at a minimum.
example; a F350SRW with a 7230 rawr and a 6000 lb fawr = 13230 lbs of braking performance.
Same with the tandem axle trailer with 7k axles = 14000 lbs of braking performance.
The sum of any vehicles axle ratings at a minimum = its total braking ability....not a GVWR number.
A truck makers isn't about to put a truck on the road that the frame or brakes can't handle a load from its RAWR/FAWR. Thats one reason the truck makers GVWR isn't used from any legal standpoint including any civil lawsuit we read so much about on rv websites.

Fords F150 with 19 different gvwr packages from 6000 up to 8200. Ford isn't about to build 19 different size frame or brake packages simply because of a gvwr number.
The F150 comes with up to 5 different rawr packages from 4800 lb down to 3300 lb.

Same with most models of Dodge/Ram and GM 2500/3500 srw trucks. In some cases the only difference is a gvwr number for warranty or tax or registration considerations.
Fleet Ford spec website is a great place from Ford engineering on weights and actual mechanical specs for the same as or differences.

PastorRon 12-23-2017 08:38 PM

Check My Numbers Please
 
Trucks are not all built equal. I bought a F-250 diesel about a year ago without doing my research. I didn’t look at the payload numbers on the pillar at all. So when I became a little more enlightened I trotted out to my truck to look at the numbers. Are you kidding me? Payload was only 1985 lbs. really? The tongue weight on the 5er that we were looking at was less than the max towing of 15,100 pounds but was way over the payload rating of the truck. So time to get some education. I figured out the truck had 20 inch tires, 3.55 rear end, no max payload package or max payload package. It was definitely a pretender when it came to towing. So I traded it in for a purpose built F-150 with all the towing and payload gear and the frame and engine configuration for max payload. Now I have a F-150 that can tow 11,200 with a max payload of 3,200 pounds. We found the 5er we liked came in a TT version that falls within 80% of the F-150 ratings. It was not within the payload of the F-250 we traded for the F-150. Purposefully building the F-150 worked for us and yes we had to order the truck. No one within 1000 miles had one configuration properly for max payload.

xrated 12-24-2017 03:34 AM

PastorRon wrote:
Quote:

I have a F-150 that can tow 11,200 with a max payload of 3,200 pounds.
Care to share a picture of the yellow/white payload sticker on the driver's side door post of that payload capacity.....I'm finding that to be way more than I would have ever thought possible?

dayle1 12-24-2017 05:33 AM

Quote:
In your efforts to justify overloading a tow vehicle, you are pulling stuff out of thin air.

GVWR is established by professional engineers (PE) in chassis design.

GVWR involves more than just axle and tire ratings. GVWR also is limited by braking capacity and frame strength. You may not exceed the GAWR of your tow vehicle, but if you exceed the GVWR (or payload capacity) of your tow vehicle, you may not have enough braking capacity to stop the rig. Or your frame may not be strong enough to haul the weight the GAWR could handle.



Quote:

Originally Posted by JIMNLIN (Post 3957675)
Braking is not a function of a truck makers GVWR but the the truck makers individual GAWRs at a minimum.
example; a F350SRW with a 7230 rawr and a 6000 lb fawr = 13230 lbs of braking performance.
Same with the tandem axle trailer with 7k axles = 14000 lbs of braking performance.
The sum of any vehicles axle ratings at a minimum = its total braking ability....not a GVWR number.
A truck makers isn't about to put a truck on the road that the frame or brakes can't handle a load from its RAWR/FAWR. Thats one reason the truck makers GVWR isn't used from any legal standpoint including any civil lawsuit we read so much about on rv websites.

.

I agree 100%. Exceeding GVWR is not the safety issue that so many want to paint it. Maybe a long term reliability concern but not an end of the world safety issue. Sure braking performance will suffer with more weight, but if that is the concern, then don't tow anything, but the impact is not catastrophic. Those Professional Engineers at the manufacturers should know all the regulations and since most states only require trailer brakes when towing over 2000 lbs, then vehicles should be designed with enough brake capability to safely handle full GVWR plus 2000 lbs. Right?

Anyone concerned about braking performance should focus not on the amount of weight involved but how well all of the brakes, truck and trailer are performing and how well the brake controller is working. Anytime the truck brakes are being used to stop the trailer, then that is the real safety issue.

xrated 12-24-2017 06:47 AM

dayle1 wrote:
Quote:

Those Professional Engineers at the manufacturers should know all the regulations and since most states only require trailer brakes when towing over 2000 lbs, then vehicles should be designed with enough brake capability to safely handle full GVWR plus 2000 lbs. Right?
LOL, that's like saying it's OK to exceed your payload by 2000 lbs.....after all, it was certified to be able to handle xxx amount of weight, so going over 2000 lbs is OK...Right!

Your statement would be pretty funny if I thought you were joking! :banghead:

dayle1 12-24-2017 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xrated (Post 3957961)
dayle1 wrote:


LOL, that's like saying it's OK to exceed your payload by 2000 lbs.....after all, it was certified to be able to handle xxx amount of weight, so going over 2000 lbs is OK...Right!

Your statement would be pretty funny if I thought you were joking! :banghead:

You are right, I'm not joking. BUT you are wrong, they are not the same issue. I was not talking about CARRYING 2000 extra lbs, but specifically STOPPING full GVWR plus a trailer that is not required by law to have it's own braking system. That has to be the design criteria. No manufacturer states that GVWR must be reduced by any towed weight lacking it's own brakes.

keymastr 12-24-2017 08:28 AM

No, but common sense does. So carrying a full load of bricks AND towing a 2000 pound trailer is OK to you and around town it probably is, but not as a every trip on the highway thing. And what if the trailer brakes get greased? Nice to have a little more truck.

He is buying another truck anyway, why do you want to talk him in to buying another insufficient truck? Doesn't make sense. If he wanted to tow on the edge of legal or over it he would just stick with the vehicle he has.

PastorRon 12-24-2017 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xrated (Post 3957828)
PastorRon wrote:





Care to share a picture of the yellow/white payload sticker on the driver's side door post of that payload capacity.....I'm finding that to be way more than I would have ever thought possible?



When I get back to Arkansas I will.

dayle1 12-24-2017 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keymastr (Post 3958103)
And what if the trailer brakes get greased? Nice to have a little more truck.

And what if this and what if that? If a little more truck is nice then why not even more truck?

Not trying to convince someone of what they need . But OP is already downsizing the trailer, so is a TV upgrade also needed?

Weight is just one aspect of safety. Maybe new tires on the truck or a ProPride 3 hitch would be better safety investments. OP stated his desire to use the LC off-road, an empty PU might be less adequate.

Anyway, I don't know the OP's specific situation , but he certainly deserves the full compliment of inputs so HE can make his best decision.

GoLeafsGo 12-24-2017 11:04 AM

I certainly appreciate all the input. Luckily I don’t have to worry about the trailer till it arrives in March, so there’s time to make the correct decision.

I plan on contacting CHP after Christmas to get the full scoop, as well as my insurance agent.

I am confident that with the way that Land Cruisers are built and the fact that the UN puts ballistic armor on them and fills them with combat ready grown men and weapons all over the world, that stupid sticker is just a product of a nanny state.

Beefed up suspension, tires, and brakes, as well as re-gearing to 4.88 further make me believe that I would not be endangering my family or others by towing a trailer under 7,000 lbs.

Having said that, I don’t want some shaister lawyer suing me for everything I own because of a sticker. That’s really what I need to clarify. If I’m told I’m opening myself up to financial ruin by exceeding the GVWR sticker I will have to begrudgingly sell the LC and buy a pickup.

As far as the type of pickup, I guess at that point I’ll overkill it and get a 2500 type because, honestly, as great as the
F-150 is in comparison, the sticker issue still applies. An extra 300 sticker pounds doesn’t solve anything especially when having to account for an extra 12 gallons of fuel because of the bigger tank.

GoLeafsGo 12-24-2017 11:34 AM

Another reason I have a hard time with these “manufacturer’s numbers” arrived at by “professional engineers”:

The manual my 2013 LC came with says

GCWR = 14,400 lbs

The online Toyota “2013 Land Cruiser Product Inflation” pdf says

GCWR = 15,885 lbs

Gordon Dewald 12-24-2017 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dayle1 (Post 3957515)
Regarding the blank, best I can find is there is no requirement for a declared weight for passenger vehicles, only commercial vehicles (which includes pickup trucks that have the stock bed replaced with an aftermarket bed). Therefore you cannot be stopped for being overloaded. Clearly there is no listed weight for determining excess weight. Someone commented that a Geo Metro could be loaded to 20k lbs per axle if the tire ratings weren't exceeded. So tire rating would be the only limitation. However, for passenger vehicles, overloaded is also defined as too much cargo and/or passengers that obstruct rear view mirrors.

My experience with weight restrictions on passenger vehicles is limited but I worked with Transport Officers on large truck hauls on construction projects.

Any officer (including transport officers) can pull you on to a scale at their discretion should they think you are in an unsafe overloaded condition.

Cost a friend $800 in fines and he had to get another trailer to split the load when he was caught with his half ton and U-Haul trailer.

keymastr 12-24-2017 12:34 PM

Neither the manual or online brochure matter. The yellow loading sticker on YOUR truck is what counts. You can go to a row of trucks on any car lot and look at each trucks sticker and the weights will be different depending on what cab/bed configuration, options, drivetrain etc.

At this point you may as well try it with the LC. My guess is you will be over the payload with just the trailer. If you plan on 3 people going with you you might be at double the payload. But it doesn't cost you anything to load it up and get a good 3 pass weight at the scales. Be sure to get a good WD hitch with built in sway control. Equalizer 4 point, Blue ox or Reese centerline are all good hitches. 1000 pound bars should be good for that trailer.

At least you know going in that it may come down to buying a truck soon after picking up the trailer. I was unaware since my numbers looked so much better than yours. Short wheelbase tow vehicles don't work that great with large heavy trailers. A gust of wind from the side or a box truck coming from behind will make you think about a different truck.

dayle1 12-24-2017 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordon Dewald (Post 3958425)

Any officer (including transport officers) can pull you on to a scale at their discretion should they think you are in an unsafe overloaded condition.

But they need a number to judge actual weight against to determine if the vehicle is overloaded. If the registration paperwork on file in the state doesn't have a weight number, then what can they legally use? Sure, the GVWR on the sticker is the obvious answer, but I wonder if anyone in Ca. using a passenger vehicle, which the LC is, has had this happen?

dayle1 12-24-2017 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keymastr (Post 3958432)
The yellow loading sticker on YOUR truck is what counts.

Be sure to get a good WD hitch with built in sway control. Equalizer 4 point, Blue ox or Reese centerline are all good hitches.

This is exactly my point, exceeding the GVWR is a problem, need better truck. But a good WD hitch is fine? Why not the ProPride 3 or HA, aren't they even better? Why worry about weight on the tow vehicle and wheelbase and not use the best sway control available?

Aren't there multiple ways to minimize the tail wagging the dog? Maybe it takes all of them, maybe not. But if sway is the concern, then the best solution absolutely begins at the back. Smaller, lighter trailer, and secure stance axle spacing. Then best hitch available. Finally a bigger, longer WB tow vehicle.

GoLeafsGo 12-24-2017 04:30 PM

Tires are Nitto Ridge Grapplers :
LT285/70/R18 rated 3860 lbs @ 80 psi

The carrying capacity on the sticker is based on passenger tires:

The factory sticker says “GAWR Front (3595LB) with P285/60R18 Rims at 240KPA (33PSI)” and “GAWR Rear (4300LB) with P285/60R18 Rims at 240KPA (33PSI)”.

Seems to me that upgrading to LT tires with much greater load capacity should be taken under consideration in a court of law despite the yellow sticker.

Rear suspension was upgraded to Old Man Emu Heavy Duty springs engineered to “provide noticeable improvements to a vehicle’s performance, including load carrying capacity and control characteristics”. I did this prior to purchasing the previous travel trailer, a Nash 23F.

Again, I towed that thing for over 20K miles without a single issue. Did I have to slow down at times due to excessive side winds? Yes. Did I keep an eye out for semis passing me at 85mph? Sure, but I stuck to 62mph and kept on chugging, and the Equalizer WD hitch kept us safe and swaying was minimal.

My plan was to upgrade to the Blue Ox Sway Pro with 1,000 lb bars this time around. I have a brake controller but was also going to upgrade to new Wildwood brakes all around. Because of the 34” tires and a bit of gear hunting while towing mountain passes I was going to re-gear to Nitro 4.88 gears.

Would a long wheelbase Ram 2500 with a 6.7 Cummins tow better? Like a champ it would! Would I be able to explore the same trails once we get to our destinations? Not likely. Would I be able to separate my kids using a third row? Obviously not.

I really am curious how the law looks at GVWR. I know that California’s vehicle code 42030.1.(a) defines “fines imposed for a conviction of a violation of operating a vehicle in excess of it's declared gross vehicle weight“. Interestingly, the fines range from $250 - $2000, but the lowest fine is set for drivers who are 1,001 - 1,500 lbs over. Does this mean that it’s legally acceptable to be up to 1,000 lbs over? Does this only apply to commercial vehicles?

GoLeafsGo 12-24-2017 04:32 PM

Also, Merry Christmas all!!

GoLeafsGo 12-24-2017 05:11 PM

One last thing:

the rating for the original tires - 2756 lbs @ 51 max psi

AA4TG 12-24-2017 05:36 PM

As a prior big rig owner operator, I guarantee you that taxafornia highway patrol does not give commercial vehicles any leeway on weight. If I were even in a slight fender bender that wasn't my fault and was overweight, I would sweat bullets. In most other states I would only be worried about the insurance company lawyer s.

AA4TG 12-24-2017 05:51 PM

Sorry, a line got left out.
If I were towing anything, including a tt or 5er I would be worried in Ca.

GoLeafsGo 12-24-2017 05:56 PM

You might be the right person to ask. Is there a government agency that re-evaluates GVWR and GAWR based on modifications?

JIMNLIN 12-24-2017 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dayle1 (Post 3958566)
But they need a number to judge actual weight against to determine if the vehicle is overloaded. If the registration paperwork on file in the state doesn't have a weight number, then what can they legally use? Sure, the GVWR on the sticker is the obvious answer, but I wonder if anyone in Ca. using a passenger vehicle, which the LC is, has had this happen?

GVWR or the payload sticker isn't used in any jurisdiction to determine a overloaded vehicle. My state for example has no weight for registration of a non commercial truck. Dot simple use the trucks FAWR/RAWR/tire ratings.

One rv website member already contacted California dot by email (in 2009) with the same questions about GVWR and GCWR. This email answer came from a CVO Commander (very long and snipped for length)

**Q: “Many of the owners travel over their tow vehicle GVWR and /or
GCWR. Are there any state laws against this? Or does the owner just
take the risk if they wish?”

A: The California Vehicle Code (CVC) does not contain a law that
specifically limits the amount of weight a vehicle may tow based on the
towing vehicle GVWR or GCWR. There are, however, laws that limit the
amount a vehicle may tow based on other criteria.
snip
Section 1085(d) of Title 13 California Code of Regulations prohibits
the loading of tires above the maximum load rating marked on the tire,
or if unmarked the maximum load rating as specified in the applicable
Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard, or in a publication furnished to
the public by the tire manufacturer. This would most likely happen in
the case of a pickup truck towing a large fifth wheel travel trailer, as
those types of trailers tend to transfer a larger portion of their
weight to the last axle of the towing unit causing that axle to exceed
the tire load limits.

I trust this has adequately answered your questions. Should you desire
any further information, please contact Officer Ron Leimer, of my staff,
at (916) 445-1865.
Sincerely, S. B. DOWLING, Captain
Commander
Commercial Vehicle Section"

Pretty simple...do not exceed the tire load limits on the last axle (RAWR).......and a registered weight of some kind if required by your state.

xrated 12-25-2017 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JIMNLIN (Post 3958960)
GVWR or the payload sticker isn't used in any jurisdiction to determine a overloaded vehicle. My state for example has no weight for registration of a non commercial truck. Dot simple use the trucks FAWR/RAWR/tire ratings.

One rv website member already contacted California dot by email (in 2009) with the same questions about GVWR and GCWR. This email answer came from a CVO Commander (very long and snipped for length)

**Q: “Many of the owners travel over their tow vehicle GVWR and /or
GCWR. Are there any state laws against this? Or does the owner just
take the risk if they wish?”

A: The California Vehicle Code (CVC) does not contain a law that
specifically limits the amount of weight a vehicle may tow based on the
towing vehicle GVWR or GCWR. There are, however, laws that limit the
amount a vehicle may tow based on other criteria.
snip
Section 1085(d) of Title 13 California Code of Regulations prohibits
the loading of tires above the maximum load rating marked on the tire,
or if unmarked the maximum load rating as specified in the applicable
Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard, or in a publication furnished to
the public by the tire manufacturer. This would most likely happen in
the case of a pickup truck towing a large fifth wheel travel trailer, as
those types of trailers tend to transfer a larger portion of their
weight to the last axle of the towing unit causing that axle to exceed
the tire load limits.

I trust this has adequately answered your questions. Should you desire
any further information, please contact Officer Ron Leimer, of my staff,
at (916) 445-1865.
Sincerely, S. B. DOWLING, Captain
Commander
Commercial Vehicle Section"

Pretty simple...do not exceed the tire load limits on the last axle (RAWR).......and a registered weight of some kind if required by your state.

And that will still not stop an attorney/law firm from filing and possibly winning a civil suit against someone for willful neglect if they are at fault for a serious or fatal accident. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems very logical to me that if I leave my house, knowing that I am over capacity with one or more of the stated weight limits, as listed by the vehicle manufacturer, then I am opening myself up to litigation in a civil suit if I cause an accident. There may be no legal basis on the books, but I suspect that a good attorney could argue willful negligence based on the fact that I was overloaded according to the manufacturers numbers. Personally, I'm not willing to take that chance.

AA4TG 12-25-2017 04:41 AM

I don't know of any governmental departmwent/agency that will do to the engineering work needed to up your weight ratings.
If I were you, I would really hate to take the chance of injuring my family or damaging that very nice tv over a stability issue. But, I do tend to tend to lean toward 'what if' instead of 'why not' when it comes to safety.
Hope you get this decision made soon so you can enjoy your new tt.

keymastr 12-25-2017 07:32 AM

To my knowledge the only time a vehicle can be re-certified is at an upfitter such as when a conversion van is finished. Motorhomes also get re-certified with new stickers based on the new weight. They get delivered as a bare chassis with weight ratings based on current weight then get re-certified when finished based on new weight. It is possible that some upfitter makes a package with re-certification but I doubt it.

Hope you have a great Christmas.

dayle1 12-25-2017 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xrated (Post 3959060)
And that will still not stop an attorney/law firm from filing and possibly winning a civil suit against someone for willful neglect if they are at fault for a serious or fatal accident. Personally, I'm not willing to take that chance.

That can happen when within all possible limits and not at fault. The only protection is not traveling or an umbrella insurance policy.

Gordon Dewald 12-25-2017 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dayle1 (Post 3958566)
But they need a number to judge actual weight against to determine if the vehicle is overloaded. If the registration paperwork on file in the state doesn't have a weight number, then what can they legally use? Sure, the GVWR on the sticker is the obvious answer, but I wonder if anyone in Ca. using a passenger vehicle, which the LC is, has had this happen?

Don't know and don't care. It seems many believe that Transport Officers are unaware and confused when it comes to determining weights and how to determine specifications and limits. Ever since my friend was pulled over, weighed and ticketed I believe it can happen, may not be often but it does happen.

Additionally why would anyone want to take their family in a vehicle that is loaded beyond the specifications. You can rationalize all you want but it is your family.

xrated 12-25-2017 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dayle1 (Post 3959307)
That can happen when within all possible limits and not at fault. The only protection is not traveling or an umbrella insurance policy.

The big difference is........I'm not wearing a target on my back and those that are towing overloaded are not only wearing a target, the bullseye is clearly marked. I seriously doubt that knowingly towing overloaded or above the manufacturers stated/posted warning against it, would get thrown out as a frivolous lawsuit. Towing within those parameters and not being "at fault" would likely earn you a free pass with no consequences. I'll take the latter please!

hitekrdnk 12-25-2017 11:23 AM

I was towing a 6500# wet weight TT with a 1500 Ram. Everything was weighed out and I was just barely within my towing specs. It worked fine, but I just didn't like being that close to my max limits. So we upgraded to a 2500 to get more capacity and breathing room on safety. This is something I should have done from the beginning. The closer we get to our trip to Arizona the happier I am that we upgraded. It's always better to have more truck than we need.

JIMNLIN 12-25-2017 09:07 PM

Quote:

And that will still not stop an attorney/law firm from filing and possibly winning a civil suit against someone for willful neglect if they are at fault for a serious or fatal accident. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems very logical to me that if I leave my house, knowing that I am over capacity with one or more of the stated weight limits, as listed by the vehicle manufacturer, then I am opening myself up to litigation in a civil suit if I cause an accident. There may be no legal basis on the books, but I suspect that a good attorney could argue willful negligence based on the fact that I was overloaded according to the manufacturers numbers. Personally, I'm not willing to take that chance.
Agree your not a lawyer nor will a smart lawyer use a truck makers gvwr in a court of law for that purpose. When a LDT maker says his trucks gvwrs can be the sum of the trucks gawrs then not even a dumb lawyer would attempt to use a lower gvwr number in any type of legal overweight action.

Every LDT truck in commercial service out here on the road can be carrying weight up to the sum of the truck makers axle ratings and can be registered as such and we never face civil lawsuits for what we read on a rv website. Sure we face overweight tickets...or placed out of service ....and civil lawsuits if were over a trucks steer axle....drive axle....trailer axle legal load limits or a declared gross or gross combined weight and are held at fault in a accident.

Why is it just RV folks that face civil lawsuits for the same infractions/scenarios with the same exact trucks ? Commerce sure doesn't.

GoLeafsGo 12-26-2017 10:35 AM

Between all of your contributions and the research I have done on my own I think I will be just fine. I have done calculations which I will break down below. Feel free to check my math and logic.

I will start by reviewing the facts. Please keep in mind that the TT numbers are based on manufacturer’s specifications and not on the actual unit, which will not be delivered till March. The 2018 model is very similar to the 2017 specs with one major change: the u-shaped dinette was changed to a booth dinette. I’m not sure there will be a weight difference, and I will weigh everything when the TT arrives and report back.

All weights are in pounds.

TV GCWR = 14,400 (online manual says 15,885)
TV GVWR = 7,385
TV GAWR(F) = 3,595
TV GAWR(R) = 4,300
Max Hitch = 850
TV Manual Recommended Tongue % = 9%-11%
LC + full tank + me = 6,260 (real # weighed last week)
Wife and kids = 380
Actual curb weight with full tank + passengers = 6,640

TT Dry Weight = 5,295
TT Dry Hitch Weight = 695
TT Max Weight with X4 Package = 7,500
Full Fresh Tank (78 gallons x 8.3) = 648
Black Tank with 5 gallons to start trip = 42
2 lithium batteries + secure box + propane = 150
Cargo = 500
Estimated TT Curb Weight = 6,635

The TT dry tongue is 13% of the TT dry weight so I will go with that calculation moving forward, although the sticker disciples should be screaming for 11% since that’s what Toyota recommends in the manual and we all know you can’t mess with manufacturers’ numbers ;) Seeing that 11% is more forgiving than 13%, I will go with 13%.

Curb TV + Curb TT = 13,275
GCWR - 13,275 = 1,125
GCWR is good (-1,125)

TT Curb Weight x 0.13 (13%) = Wet Tongue Weight
6,635 x 0.13 = 863

Using a WD Hitch, 1/3 (0.34) of the tongue load is shifted to the TT axles and 2/3 (0.67) to the TV.

Wet Tongue Weight x 0.67 = Tongue Weight added to TV
863 x 0.67 = 578

TV GVWR - TV Curb Weight - TV Tongue Weight
7,385 - 6,635 - 578 = 172
TV GVWR is good (-172)

TT Wet Curb Weight + 1/3 distributed tongue weight
6,635 + 293 (863 x 0.34) = 6,928

TT GVWR - TT Wet and 1/3 distributed tongue weight
7,500 - 6,928 = 572
TT GVWR is good (-572)

So, if I go with 13% tongue weight and I travel with 78 gallons of fresh water (which will never happen), as long as I don’t go too much over 500 pounds of cargo I’m within sticker limits. Now, were I to use 11% as my target hitch percentage as recommended by Toyota, that cushion grows even more.

None of the TV numbers used above take into account going from P tires to LT tires, beefed up HD suspension, beefed up brakes, and re-gearing.

My conclusion: the LC will do just fine.

I will hold off re-gearing and upgrading the brakes till after receiving the trailer and getting scale weights, in case the numbers are off and I end up having to get a heavy duty truck after all.

xrated 12-26-2017 12:36 PM

The flaw in your numbers is that the amount of tongue weight present, does not change with a W.D. hitch installed. If you have 863 lbs of tongue weight, a W.D. hitch does not magically make part of that weight disappear. It's still going to be overloaded no matter how you slice it.

GoLeafsGo 12-26-2017 01:02 PM

Based on other interpretations I would beg to differ, it “distributes” the weight to 3 axles (TV front, TV rear, and TT). What percentage goes where depends on the load and length of the bars.

But even if you are correct, I don’t plan on towing with 78 gallons of fresh water anyway.

xrated 12-26-2017 01:23 PM

Interpretations don't matter, physics do. A W.D. Hitch doesn't make tongue weight disappear, it's still present at the ball/hitch assembly. You probably need to continue with your research. And actually, the distribution amount (percentage forward and percentage to the rear) is determined by the distance between the axles of the TV and the trailer.

And another thing to seriously consider, Toyota's 11% tongue weight "suggestion" or whatever it was is almost certainly not enough tongue weight to keep the trailer from swaying. A more realistic number is the 13 % number. Plus, a good W.D. hitch is going to weigh in at approx. another 75-90 lbs.....which obviously adds even more weight to your ever increasing tongue weight issue.

GoLeafsGo 12-26-2017 01:27 PM

And it’s not magic, it’s physics - opposing forces.

Tongue weight goes on mostly the rear axle, in my example 863 lbs., causing the rear of the vehicle to sag and the front to rise due to the downward force. I add a weight DISTRIBUTING hitch which creates an upward force dependent on the bars. This force counters the hitch force making the rear of the vehicle rise because the “weight” is being distributed to the other axles. I know that it goes towards the front axle because the front of the vehicle goes back down, and I know it also goes toward the trailer axles because the front of the trailer rises.

Whether it’s distributed 1/3, 1/3, and 1/3 is dependent on the hitch set up, which is why having someone who knows what they’re doing set it up is important.

I have seen convoluted calculations showing that typically it goes 18% TV front axle, 49% TV rear axle, and 33% TT axles, but again, those percentages can be adjusted depending on what the setup calls for.

xrated 12-26-2017 01:41 PM

The weight distributing aspect does not change the 10-13% tongue weight ratio. It merely helps the tow vehicle carry that load by distributing it more evenly. Tongue weight is the amont of downward pressure at the trailer tongue and is independent of how that weight is supported by the tow vehicle.

GoLeafsGo 12-26-2017 01:56 PM

You’re saying 100% of the downward pressure is supported by the tow vehicle and 0% is distributed to the trailer axles?

dayle1 12-26-2017 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xrated (Post 3960600)
The weight distributing aspect does not change the 10-13% tongue weight ratio. It merely helps the tow vehicle carry that load by distributing it more evenly. Tongue weight is the amont of downward pressure at the trailer tongue and is independent of how that weight is supported by the tow vehicle.

But weight distribution not only helps the tow vehicle carry the load, but with better balance it will also help the tow vehicle control sway. So, the tongue weight 'window' should become larger.

GoLeafsGo 12-26-2017 02:06 PM

xrated- If that’s true, and I don’t think it is, I’ll load to set the tongue weight at 11% per Toyota specs.

That will make wet tongue weight 730 lbs, assuming 78 gallons of fresh/5 gallons black/500 lbs cargo, and I’m still well within manufacturer specs with room to spare.

If it doesn’t distribute weight it shouldn’t be called a weight distributing hitch ;)

AA4TG 12-26-2017 02:13 PM

The best way I can explain the tongue weight is, take the unhooked trailer and scale the tongue for x lbs. That x pounds is a constant unless weight is added or removed, or the trailer axles are moved forward or aft. The wd hitch shifts the weight on the tv axles more or less forward. It does nothing to the weight balance of the trailer ergo, the tongue weight.

AA4TG 12-26-2017 02:22 PM

Continuing, ergo the young weight remains unchanged, just the weight on each tow vehicle axle changes.

GoLeafsGo 12-26-2017 02:24 PM

So taking all the cargo and moving it to the rear of the trailer will not affect tongue weight because the axles haven’t moved for or aft? Years of experience on a teeter totter tell me that’s not correct.

When applying WD on my previous trailer I could hear the springs on the trailer axles making noise as load was shifted to them.

AA4TG 12-26-2017 02:29 PM

Not what I said. I said that the tongue weight remains constant unless weight were added or removed, or the tt axles moved. I was trying to explain the lb hitch has no effect on the weight exerted on it, just the weight distribution on the tv axels.

xrated 12-26-2017 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoLeafsGo (Post 3960621)
xrated- If that’s true, and I don’t think it is, I’ll load to set the tongue weight at 11% per Toyota specs.

That will make wet tongue weight 730 lbs, assuming 78 gallons of fresh/5 gallons black/500 lbs cargo, and I’m still well within manufacturer specs with room to spare.

If it doesn’t distribute weight it shouldn’t be called a weight distributing hitch ;)

And again, you may find that 11% is not enough to prevent trailer sway. Most folks find that 12-13% of the GVWR number works pretty good for the amount of tongue weight to prevent or minimize trailer sway. My toy hauler, the way I load it is right at 11.5% and and the Blue Ox Sway Pro helps keep it under control. Even when I only had 11% on the tongue, it had a tendency to sway except in totally calm wind conditions.

Here is a link for you to click on and read....
https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/f...d/14265335.cfm

And at the end of the second paragraph....
Note - When the WD system is engaged the actual tongue weight does not change. Recommended tongue weight is from 10% to 15%.

Notice, the author didn't say that the weight is NOT redistributed, he said that the weight didn't change. If you start out with 1000 lbs of tongue weight without the W.D. hitch and then you engage it, you still have a 1000 lbs of tongue weight.

keymastr 12-26-2017 09:31 PM

Will it be doable even using the axle weight ratings to squeeze the last pound of capacity out you can? Maybe, but your problem will be getting the individual ratings to stay within the limits. Your rear axle rating will probably be the hardest to stay within leaving you two options. Less tongue weight which will induce sway, or adjust the hitch to transfer more weight. The problem with that is it drives real spooky and any side forces really move you around. You may find that it drives better with the rear axle overloaded than it does when the weight is more distributed.

The reason Toyota recommends a tongue weight of 9 to 11% is because they want to advertise a higher tow rating and the only way they can is to make sure the tongue weight is low enough to be carried by the cargo capacity. That is why commercials show trucks towing flatbed trailers and boats because those trailers stay stable with tongue weights as low as 6%.

Good luck with it. I hope you have better luck than I did. I know my trailer came in with a dry weight several hundred pounds heavier than the brochure. You may get tired of playing the load balancing game, not carrying water, leaving things at home, replacing worn parts.

GoLeafsGo 12-26-2017 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xrated (Post 3960948)
And again, you may find that 11% is not enough to prevent trailer sway. Most folks find that 12-13% of the GVWR number works pretty good for the amount of tongue weight to prevent or minimize trailer sway. My toy hauler, the way I load it is right at 11.5% and and the Blue Ox Sway Pro helps keep it under control. Even when I only had 11% on the tongue, it had a tendency to sway except in totally calm wind conditions.

Here is a link for you to click on and read....
https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/f...d/14265335.cfm

And at the end of the second paragraph....
Note - When the WD system is engaged the actual tongue weight does not change. Recommended tongue weight is from 10% to 15%.

Notice, the author didn't say that the weight is NOT redistributed, he said that the weight didn't change. If you start out with 1000 lbs of tongue weight without the W.D. hitch and then you engage it, you still have a 1000 lbs of tongue weight.

Yes, that's the same article I was reading. I think the confusion comes from "load" vs "weight". In my mind the reason there are weight restrictions on vehicles is that overLOADING certain components by putting too much weight on them can cause failure. As such, distributing the load from the TV rear axle to the TV front axle and TT axles minimizes the possibility of component failure.

As the first entry in the article you referenced states:

Summary of axle load changes:
TV front axle 611.54 lbs ADDED
TV rear axle 911.54 lbs REMOVED
TT axles 300.00 lbs ADDED

It further states that "the WD hitch does not distribute “tongue weight”. It simply removes load from the TV’s rear axle and distributes it to the TV’s front axle and the TT’s axles".

And:

"The UP force of 2000 lbs on the rear ends of the spring bars produces an UP force of 2000 lbs at the hitch end of the spring bars.
The UP force of 2000 lbs minus the DOWN force of 1700 lbs on the ball gives a net UP force of 300 lbs at the hitch.
The vertical load on the receiver has been reduced by 300 lbs.
The vertical load transmitted through the ball has been increased by 1700 lbs".

bobbin 01-08-2018 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoLeafsGo (Post 3961086)
Yes, that's the same article I was reading. I think the confusion comes from "load" vs "weight". In my mind the reason there are weight restrictions on vehicles is that overLOADING certain components by putting too much weight on them can cause failure. As such, distributing the load from the TV rear axle to the TV front axle and TT axles minimizes the possibility of component failure.

As the first entry in the article you referenced states:

Summary of axle load changes:
TV front axle 611.54 lbs ADDED
TV rear axle 911.54 lbs REMOVED
TT axles 300.00 lbs ADDED

It further states that "the WD hitch does not distribute “tongue weight”. It simply removes load from the TV’s rear axle and distributes it to the TV’s front axle and the TT’s axles".

And:

"The UP force of 2000 lbs on the rear ends of the spring bars produces an UP force of 2000 lbs at the hitch end of the spring bars.
The UP force of 2000 lbs minus the DOWN force of 1700 lbs on the ball gives a net UP force of 300 lbs at the hitch.
The vertical load on the receiver has been reduced by 300 lbs.
The vertical load transmitted through the ball has been increased by 1700 lbs".

imho, you are best advised to drop the notion of using your LC as a TV.
reasons:
1/ you are confused over the rated numbers, and between static and dynamic loading
2/ you lack the knowledge to overcome an overloaded TV
3/ the LC was never designed to control a TT of your intended mass and dimensions
4/ the LC mass and wheel base is significantly less than that of the intended TT. this is reason alone to conclude the LC is unsafe for the job.
5/ a WD hitch cannot magically reduce the mass loading of the TT, nor the dynamic vector forces.
6/ yours is an unconventional situation, yet you are applying conventional knowledge and technology.

Could I recommend a solution? yes. But with your lack of experience, I have no assurance you could safely execute, so I shall not advise. Be safe. Drop the notion of LC with a conventional TT. The life you save may be your own.

dayle1 01-09-2018 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbin (Post 3981202)

.

Bobbin, you must know the OP quite well along with his TV and planned TT to make such direct statements. Hard to discuss all the 'facts' you included, but seems that the majority of rigs have TT's or fivers that weight more than the tow vehicle in front of them.

bobbin 01-09-2018 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dayle1 (Post 3981776)
Bobbin, you must know the OP quite well along with his TV and planned TT to make such direct statements. Hard to discuss all the 'facts' you included, but seems that the majority of rigs have TT's or fivers that weight more than the tow vehicle in front of them.

hmm, the "majority" I see do not pull 7000# with SUV fully loaded. have you ever driven an LC? towed with it? I have. not a good towing experience. an LC was never designed for towing, yet the OP wants to push his LC to its very limits. bad idea. and he wants to include wife and kids. worse idea. thus the OP is advised to err on the side of caution and get a TV better suited for towing his rig.

Oldelevatorman 01-09-2018 09:21 PM

Check My Numbers Please
 
Salesman should certainly know the real numbers so they could assure your safety. But that would require having a conscience and really wanting to help!


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