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-   -   Check My Numbers Please (https://www.irv2.com/forums/f45/check-my-numbers-please-372151.html)

GoLeafsGo 12-22-2017 09:24 PM

Here is some more information:

The Toyota numbers assume stock configuration. I upgraded the shocks to HD and have 10 ply E rated tires, not the tires it came with.

I’m also looking into re-gearing From 3.909 to 4.88 and installing upgraded brakes.

SmokeyWren 12-22-2017 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoLeafsGo (Post 3956485)
And ORV clearly states that the Creekside class is designed for SUVs and 1/2 ton pickups.

ORV (and all other RV manufacturers) stretch the truth. You can tow a so-called "half-ton towable" RV trailer with a half-ton vehicle only if there are no options on the vehicle except those required to tow a trailer, and if there is absolutely no weight in the truck except a skinny driver.

The facts (not the hype) of RV towing are provided by the certified automated truck (CAT) scale. Load your LC with everybody and everything that will be in it when towing. No, not with just you - with everybody and everything. Drive to a truck stop that has a CAT scale, fill up with gas, then weigh the wet and loaded SUV.

Subtract the wet and loaded weight of the SUV from the GVWR of the SUV and the answer is the payload capacity available for hitch weight. Subtract 100 pounds for a good WD hitch from the payload capacity available for hitch weight and the answer is the payload capacity available for trailer tongue weight (TW).

Divide the payload capacity available for TW by 0.13 (13%) and the answer is the max GVWR of any TT you want to consider buying. If the trailer specs do not include GVWR, then add dry weight plus cargo carrying capacity (CCC) to get GVWR.

Quote:

...doesn't GAWR suggest that the axles can handle 7895?
Axles yes, but there is a lot more involved with towing and hauling than just the axles of the tow vehicle. Weight ratings of springs, shocks, and the other parts of the suspension. Vehicle braking capacity. Frame strength. Etc. GVWR is your limiter, not combined GAWR.

Quote:

Why the 500 lb discrepancy?
You would probably have to be a professional engineer (PE) in chassis engineering to arrive at a good answer. But if you dig into the engineering specs of your vehicle and determine how Toy came up with the GVWR, the answer is probably there.

keymastr 12-23-2017 12:30 AM

The ratings for individual components such as axles and wheels always add up to slightly more than the overall GVWR. All manufacturers do it not just Toyota.

Lots of vehicles seem like they would be suitable tow vehicles until you run the numbers. There are some people with trailers as heavy as yours being towed by Ram 1500s That have less payload than your LC. They get away with it because they have a much longer wheelbase. Short wheelbase is your biggest limiting factor in my opinion. I would not bother spending a ton on gear changes, power is not the problem. Stability will be with 1000 pounds of tongue weight,(100 pounds for the hitch itself), and whatever passengers you have in the LC.

The tongue weight is either very close to or over the capacity of the stock receiver as well so you might look at upgrading that. It should have a rating stamped on it somewhere.

Your LC should have a yellow loading sticker probably on the drivers door pillar that shows the actual payload that particular vehicle had as it left the factory. If you added any racks, lightbars, heavier tires, off-road jacks, winches etc. the weight of those things also must be subtracted from the cargo capacity on the sticker. It will say "passengers and cargo not to exceed xxxx".

You may have been over your cargo capacity with your old trailer too. Lots of people do. It works right up until it doesn't. Someone pulls out in front of you on a highway, a curve is sharper than expected, a steer tire has a sudden blowout. Rare things maybe but they do happen. Ratings are not for sunny days when everything goes perfectly.

xrated 12-23-2017 01:56 AM

LC.....GVWR 7385 Curb weight 6260 Maximum amount of leftover weight to hit the GVWR is 1125 lbs....also known as your payload capacity. And keep in mind, some manufacturers include in the payload capacity a 150 lb driver and a full tank of fuel. Some don't even include a 150 lb driver....just the full tank of fuel. So that 1125 could be accurate or is could actually be less (your weight)

So looking at the 6995 GVWR of the trailer (round it off to 7K), at 13% of that number for a legitimate tongue weight, you are looking at 909 lbs. And keep in mind that 13% is not a "set in stone" number, but should be fairly close to what your real world could be. So that leaves you with 215 lbs for everything else that needs to go in the L.C.......so to say the very least...you are on the edge of your payload capacity even if you don't add anything else to the L.C.
If you include passenger, supplies, food, pets, whatever you decide to take with you, you will most likely be Over the payload capacity. Personally, I would not like to be in an "on the very edge" situation with my towing setup/rig. And in fact, I was in that very same spot earlier this year, and it was not a pleasant experience. My F250 CC 4x4 Diesel truck with a 10K GVWR simply just wasn't enough to safely tow the Toy Hauler I have without adding more and more weight to get the proper amount of tongue weight, which then put the truck over the GVWR. Simple answer, more truck. Of course that wasn't an inexpensive answer, but it was THE answer.

In your case, as someone stated above, you either need more tow vehicle for that trailer or you need less trailer for that tow vehicle.

GoLeafsGo wrote:
Quote:

The Toyota numbers assume stock configuration. I upgraded the shocks to HD and have 10 ply E rated tires, not the tires it came with.

I’m also looking into re-gearing From 3.909 to 4.88 and installing upgraded brakes.
Adding and or changing those items you mentioned will not increase your available payload even one lb.....sorry. They are all money spent on items that will not help your situation of being right at and most likely overloaded.

And if it's any consolation (which I'm pretty sure it isn't), as stated above, I ended up having to get rid of a very nice truck with low miles for being 6 year old, and get one that had a lot more capability for towing my T.H. Granted, I went "overkill" in my choice, but I now have a truck that I can use, without having to change trucks again if I would decide to buy a bigger trailer/5ver in the future. The best part right now is....no more worries about being on the ragged edge of ANY of the weight capacities for me, and a very easy towing experience every time I take it out

GoLeafsGo 12-23-2017 07:16 AM

Thanks. I appreciate the sympathetic breaking of bad news! I definitely had trouble sleeping last night due to the worry.

JohnBoyToo 12-23-2017 07:36 AM

1 Attachment(s)
No worries, we've all done that bit of learning :)
some faster than others as shown in my evolution:
the time between the first pic and 2nd was 30 years or so,
the 2nd to third was 2 years,
then one year,
then 3 years....

I'm trying to stick with this combo :)

xrated 12-23-2017 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoLeafsGo (Post 3956747)
Thanks. I appreciate the sympathetic breaking of bad news! I definitely had trouble sleeping last night due to the worry.

I honestly do feel your pain. We had talked about getting a truck and Toy Hauler for several years. Our plan was to buy the truck, get it paid off, then buy the T.H. The problem with that thinking was I thought at that time, a 3/4T truck should pull about anything I wanted to buy...T.H. wise. After all, it was a 3/4T Diesel and hey, "It will pull anything"! I had no idea about GVWRs, Payload, GAWRs, Combined ratings, etc. So fast forward to Oct. 2016 and the hunt for a T.H. started. It didn't take long for me to realize that my paltry 2148 lbs of payload capacity wasn't going to work for a 38' 5ver T.H. that I wanted to get. In fact, the pin weight on that trailer was going to overload my truck by 800-1000 lbs. So I ended up buying a 34 1/2' tow behind that I'm happy with. Come to find out (I didn't research enough.....AGAIN) when you start loading toys in the back, it starts taking away from your tongue weight, to the point that I was so light up front that the T.H. was swaying all over the road. The solution.....keep adding more weight to the front of the trailer to re-establish proper tongue weight. That plan was starting to work pretty well until I got to the point that enough tongue weight up front was to the point I was at, or slightly over on the truck GVWR.....and I still didn't have enough weight.....it was still wanting to sway a little. I ended up with trading the F250 (the truck that I thought would be my last truck....and paid off) and buying a 2016 F350 Crew Cab 4x4 Dually. Plenty of truck (overkill in fact for my T.H.), and plenty of room for any future T.H. or 5ver that I would want. So yes, I feel your pain and I'm sorry you are going through this, but remember, there are solutions, ones that will work for you, but you have to be willing to and open to change....just as I was. And the ironic thing is NOW, I have a truck that I could have easily towing that original 38' 5ver that I wanted in the beginning, with absolutely no weight capacity issues whatsoever....in any of the weight capacity categories.....Live and Learn I guess....and that is what we are all trying to help you with here......only you get the advantage of learning from some of our mistakes instead of having to learn them on your own and then paying the price for your mistakes. Sorry again.....I hope things work out well for you. In the scheme of things in life, it's not a BIG thing.

GoLeafsGo 12-23-2017 08:00 AM

I’m surprised by the suspension and brake upgrades not affecting GVWR.

The trailer I ordered comes with an “Off-Road X4” package which is basically a better shock absorber and a tire upgrade from C to D. When you choose that package the max weight on the trailer goes up from 6995 to 7500.

If that’s true for the trailer, why doesn’t upgrading suspension, tires, and brakes increase the weight rating for the tow vehicle?

When I look up GVWR there’s always mention of effects on tires, suspension and brakes, so it seems logical that the “sticker” GVWR is based on factory tires, suspension, and brakes, thereby meaning that upgrades to these should have at least a nominal effect.

I honestly don’t mean to come across as being argumentative, I’m just trying to make sense of the fact that the only difference between the old set up and the new is 3 less feet of trailer and 275 lbs more of dry hitch weight. (And before one more person tells me that dry hitch weight will not be the actual hitch weight: I know - I’m comparing apples to apples, as in the dry hitch weight of the old trailer vs the new).

Another factor is that the new trailer has significantly less storage, meaning the wet hitch weight will not go up as much as the old one did.

I’m sorry if my rationalizing online is annoying to anyone...you don’t need to read this thread, but for those who are kindly indulging me - I thank you.

GoLeafsGo 12-23-2017 08:04 AM

Thanks xrated and JohnBoyToo , well, too ;)

keymastr 12-23-2017 10:14 AM

The reason that upgrading the tires and suspension does nothing for your GVWR but did on your trailer is that the upgrades were done at the factory and they made the certification at that time. They are also assuming the liability of certifying that the other components will be capable of performing up to the new weight rating as well.

It is doubtful you can get the weight ratings changed. There may be a chance if you get the work done at an upfitter shop. The factory conversion vans are re-stickered that way but even if you did you would not likely gain much and you would still have a marginal tow vehicle towing a fairly heavy trailer.

Last year when I bought my ORV I had an '05 Expedition with just over 100,000 miles that I bought new and had just spent several thousand dollars changing shocks, struts, every fluid including both rear ends and the transfer case, new load range E tires etc. I was sure I could drive that truck for another 10 years, and I could, just not with the trailer I bought. The Expy had an 8600 pound towing limit and a 1460 pound cargo capacity with a full tank of fuel and a 150 pound driver. Almost identical to the F150 of that year.

The trailer had a 7500 pound GVWR which would give a max tongue weight of 975 pounds at 13%. That leaves 400 pounds of capacity left with 100 pounds for the WD hitch and the trailers gross is 1100 pounds under the max tow rating, looking good right? Nope.

Turns out that because the Expedition has independent rear suspension it is less stable towing higher weight trailers. Combine that with the relatively short wheelbase and it was a bit wiggly. Not too bad until a semi passed from the rear or it got windy. I spent hours going over the hitch setup trying different configurations, moving weight around, leaving as much stuff at home as possible, driving with empty tanks but it was no use.

If I would have bought a lighter trailer it would likely still be in my driveway. On paper it was a perfect fit, in the real world that combination just didn't work. Longer wheelbase, solid axle rather than IRS, lighter trailer, any one of those things would probably have been enough to make it work without always feeling like the trailer was in control of the tow vehicle.

Man I did not want to spend another 40,000 the same year as buying the trailer but it had to be done. Not to mention the thousands I wasted on the Expy getting it prepped for the next 100,000 miles. I keep my rigs a long time so it will be OK but the timing sucked!

Anyway, I hope you can figure out a solution that works for you. I went the crew cab 4x4 route and it gets me off road pretty good. We like to hike forest service trails and getting there is sometimes challenging and so far it works great and the difference in confidence when towing is amazing. Good luck whatever you decide.

So yes, I truly feel your pain.

xrated 12-23-2017 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoLeafsGo (Post 3956818)
Thanks xrated and JohnBoyToo , well, too ;)

You are quite welcome. I enjoy trying to help folks that may be in the same or similar situations as I was when I was completely uninformed about all the nuances of towing a heavier trailer. There was most likely "help" available for me at the time to be able to learn what I should have learned BEFORE buying my F250, but I was just to dumb to ask for it. I just thought.....3/4T Diesel....I should be good to go. But when that reality finally hit, it made me kind of immerse myself into knowing the hows and whatfors of towing correctly. I'm no expert for sure, but I sure know a whole lot more now that I did before....and I enjoy sharing that with others. Well, let's say I enjoy it somewhat, but sometimes it pains me because I know that they are in my former situation and are going to have to do something different that they don't really want to do or sometimes afford to do....and they are stuck. Anyway, I'll quit rambling and just wish you luck in getting it resolved. Holler if you have any other questions....we've got a bunch of great folks on here that love to be able to help others, and that's what it's all about for sure.

dayle1 12-23-2017 10:45 AM

Your truck can legally weigh up to its registered weight as long as you don't exceed OEM tire rating on any tire. Since very few weigh their loaded tow vehicle let alone by individual tire a GVWR lower than the total of GAWRs provides some buffer. What is your registered weight?

Old-Biscuit 12-23-2017 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoLeafsGo (Post 3956438)
Okay, here are all the numbers on the Toyota:

GVWR = 7,385
GAWR (front) = 3,595
GAWR (rear) = 4,300
GCWR = 14,400
TWR = 8,100
Unbraked TWR = 1,000
Recommended tongue weight by Toyota = 9 - 11%
Curb Weight = 6,260 (weighed today with me and full tank)

Estimated numbers on the trailer:

Dry Weight = 5,295
Hitch Dry Weight = 695
Maximum Trailer Weight = 6,995

OK........
You have gotten caught up in the GVWR 'game'
See...vehicle payload is based on the GVWR
GVWR is set by mfg. based on 'Class Rating' of vehicle & Warranty Issues
GVWR is also a 'vehicle registration' issue.....higher the GVWR the higher the registration fees

Neither of the two (GVWR/Payload) are a 'legal' issue

BUT axles/tire load ratings are and should be a concern.
FAWR on LC is 3595#
RAWR on LC is 4300#
When you weighed the LC (you/fuel) how much of that 6260 total was on each axle?

With WDH you can shift the trailer tongue weight between F/R axles

Dry trailer----5295# with a dry hitch of 695#.
That is a dry tongue weight of 13%
Using that 13% for wet tongue of trailer GVWR.....6995# X 13%=910#

So your LC should be able to handle that tongue weight even if trailer is FULLY loaded.
Yes you will be over the LC GVWR
Yes you will be over the LC Payload
BUT you will not be over LC Axle Ratings or LC GCVWR
Check what the LC Tire Max Load Ratings are .......then S/B good to go


Course I am going to get 'flamed' for not putting as much importance as some on GVWR/Payload numbers but they are NOT Legal Issues....Warranty & Registration Issues
I have a 10100# GVWR but can LEGALLY register for 12K ---just have to pay the registration fee------even the Gov/Legal Entities are NOT concerned with actual GVWR (and payload is based on that number)

:popcorn:

gimlimike 12-23-2017 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoLeafsGo (Post 3956438)
Okay, here are all the numbers on the Toyota:

GVWR = 7,385
GAWR (front) = 3,595
GAWR (rear) = 4,300
GCWR = 14,400
TWR = 8,100
Unbraked TWR = 1,000
Recommended tongue weight by Toyota = 9 - 11%
Curb Weight = 6,260 (weighed today with me and full tank)

Estimated numbers on the trailer:

Dry Weight = 5,295
Hitch Dry Weight = 695
Maximum Trailer Weight = 6,995

When I was checking out fifth wheels I took the Gvwr ( max trailer weight) added 15% for cushion to not overload truck frame,drivetrain, etc and made sure the Gvwr of the pulling vehicle exceeded that number. Usually ended up anything over 30 ft needed a 3/4 Ton with 6.6 litres + and figured a Duramax or Cummins Diesel was the only option.


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