iRV2 Forums

iRV2 Forums (https://www.irv2.com/forums/)
-   Trailer Towing and Tow Vehicles Discussion (https://www.irv2.com/forums/f45/)
-   -   Check My Numbers Please (https://www.irv2.com/forums/f45/check-my-numbers-please-372151.html)

Steve & Bunny 12-23-2017 11:09 AM

You will be fine.
The weight of the trailer does NOT get added to the weight of the vehicle. The tongue weight does.

GCWR is Gross Combined Weight Rating, which is the weight of the tow vehicle as loaded when towing plus the weight of the trailer as loaded for towing.

Happy Trails,
;)

SmokeyWren 12-23-2017 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old-Biscuit (Post 3957048)
OK........
You have gotten caught up in the GVWR 'game'
See...vehicle payload is based on the GVWR
GVWR is set by mfg. based on 'Class Rating' of vehicle & Warranty Issues
GVWR is also a 'vehicle registration' issue.....higher the GVWR the higher the registration fees

Neither of the two (GVWR/Payload) are a 'legal' issue

In your efforts to justify overloading a tow vehicle, you are pulling stuff out of thin air.

GVWR is established by professional engineers (PE) in chassis design.

GVWR involves more than just axle and tire ratings. GVWR also is limited by braking capacity and frame strength. You may not exceed the GAWR of your tow vehicle, but if you exceed the GVWR (or payload capacity) of your tow vehicle, you may not have enough braking capacity to stop the rig. Or your frame may not be strong enough to haul the weight the GAWR could handle.

Granted, in some cases, the manufacturer offers an option of a lower GVWR than standard because of registration fees, such as the GVWR of the F-350 SRW. But that's the exception, not the rule. Any buyer with two brain cells to rub together knows that the F-350 SRW with the optional 10,000 GVWR pkg is identical to the same truck with 11,500 GVWR.

But they never reduce GVWR because of warranty concerns or whether a truck is a class 2 or class 3 truck. The PEs would never stand for that sort of nonsense.

Quote:

Course I am going to get 'flamed' for not putting as much importance as some on GVWR/Payload numbers but they are NOT Legal Issues....
Maybe not in your jurisdiction, but they are definitely legal issue in other jurisdictions. You can get an overloaded ticket in many jurisdictions for exceeding the GVWR or payload capacity of your tow vehicle. And if you are involved in an accident where someone gets hurt or killed, a good lawyer for the other guy will assure that you can never again afford a nice RV and tow vehicle.

xrated 12-23-2017 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokeyWren (Post 3957096)
In your efforts to justify overloading a tow vehicle, you are pulling stuff out of thin air.

GVWR is established by professional engineers (PE) in chassis design.

GVWR involves more than just axle and tire ratings. GVWR also is limited by braking capacity and frame strength. You may not exceed the GAWR of your tow vehicle, but if you exceed the GVWR (or payload capacity) of your tow vehicle, you may not have enough braking capacity to stop the rig. Or your frame may not be strong enough to haul the weight the GAWR could handle.

Granted, in some cases, the manufacturer offers an option of a lower GVWR than standard because of registration fees, such as the GVWR of the F-350 SRW. But that's the exception, not the rule. Any buyer with two brain cells to rub together knows that the F-350 SRW with the optional 10,000 GVWR pkg is identical to the same truck with 11,500 GVWR.

But they never reduce GVWR because of warranty concerns or whether a truck is a class 2 or class 3 truck. The PEs would never stand for that sort of nonsense.



Maybe not in your jurisdiction, but they are definitely legal issue in other jurisdictions. You can get an overloaded ticket in many jurisdictions for exceeding the GVWR or payload capacity of your tow vehicle. And if you are involved in an accident where someone gets hurt or killed, a good lawyer for the other guy will assure that you can never again afford a nice RV and tow vehicle.

Very well stated Smokey and a better explanation than I had.

To add to what Smokey said, read ANY or EVERY owner's manual that comes with the car/truck/whatever and you will find a WARNING.......
Do NOT exceed any stated load capacity of this vehicle! It doesn't say that you get to pick and choose which one or more that it's OK to exceed for your own purpose, it says not to exceed ANY of them. There's got to be a good reason for that, and Smokey probably nailed it in the above post!

GoLeafsGo 12-23-2017 12:50 PM

The only markers on my registration are:
Class - QX
Type Veh - 120
MP - G
No idea what that means but “Unladen/G/CGW” is blank.

I’m still torn, but looking at:

2018 F-150 3.5L EcoBoost V6 SuperCrew 4x4 with 3.55

Curb = 5,016
GVWR = 7850 *
GCWR = 18,100
Payload = 2,620 *
Max Tow = 12,700

* with HD Payload Package and 18” wheels

Extended range tank (36 gallons) = 300 lbs
My family and I = 650 lbs
Hitch = 100 lbs

That should leave about 1,500 lbs for hitch weight and assorted junk like bikes and/or a canoe.

Not planning on getting a bigger trailer as the reason we sold our Nash was to go smaller.

Thoughts?

GoLeafsGo 12-23-2017 12:53 PM

Now, if money was not a consideration, I would do:

https://forum.aev-conversions.com/fo...n-jackson-hole

xrated 12-23-2017 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoLeafsGo (Post 3957193)
The only markers on my registration are:
Class - QX
Type Veh - 120
MP - G
No idea what that means but “Unladen/G/CGW” is blank.

I’m still torn, but looking at:

2018 F-150 3.5L EcoBoost V6 SuperCrew 4x4 with 3.55

Curb = 5,016
GVWR = 7850 *
GCWR = 18,100
Payload = 2,620 *
Max Tow = 12,700

* with HD Payload Package and 18” wheels

Extended range tank (36 gallons) = 300 lbs
My family and I = 650 lbs
Hitch = 100 lbs

That should leave about 1,500 lbs for hitch weight and assorted junk like bikes and/or a canoe.

Not planning on getting a bigger trailer as the reason we sold our Nash was to go smaller.

Thoughts?

From what I've seen, that one would work for you as long as you make sure to get the HD payload package. Those trucks in the F150 are petty scarce and most of the time have to be ordered to that spec. Most folks, if they figure that they are going to need that kind of payload capacity will usually just go ahead and get an F250 as long as you don't get one like I had.....with only 2148 lbs of payload capacity. Is this one that you saw in person at a dealership? or are you going by a spec sheet or brochure? Even the HD towing package will most likely have some varience between models....depending how they are equipped.....Loaded up Platinum vs. an XLT will have less payload available because of all the "goodies" it has.

dayle1 12-23-2017 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoLeafsGo (Post 3957193)
The only markers on my registration are:
Class - QX
Type Veh - 120
MP - G
No idea what that means but “Unladen/G/CGW” is blank.

Regarding the blank, best I can find is there is no requirement for a declared weight for passenger vehicles, only commercial vehicles (which includes pickup trucks that have the stock bed replaced with an aftermarket bed). Therefore you cannot be stopped for being overloaded. Clearly there is no listed weight for determining excess weight. Someone commented that a Geo Metro could be loaded to 20k lbs per axle if the tire ratings weren't exceeded. So tire rating would be the only limitation. However, for passenger vehicles, overloaded is also defined as too much cargo and/or passengers that obstruct rear view mirrors.

GoLeafsGo 12-23-2017 05:43 PM

I went to check out the Ram 2500 Cummins and the F-150.

Ram wins the “Home Improvement” Tim Allan testosterone contest hands down, but the stupid cut away in the middle seat in the back row sucks for a family of five. So annoying!

The F-150 is much more civilized and feels like a “city truck”, and puts the Ram to shame as far as technology is concerned.

You’re right - I was shocked that the GVWR of the F-150 is 350 pounds lower than the LC while the payload is only 300 lbs more. Some of that , a lot of it actually, would be eaten up by the extra 16 gallons in the tank.

They’re looking into the Heavy Duty Payload package for me. They called out their resident towing expert who literally laughed at me and said that both the F-150 on the lot and my LC would tow the trailer I bought “all day” and that “everyone is over their sticker weight”. He said that the weights on the trailer make it an ultralight and it’s meant for SUVs and 1/2 tons.

keymastr 12-23-2017 05:59 PM

Just get a 250 and be done with it. By the time you actually find the unicorn 150 with the HD payload and all the other options it will be more money than a nice 250. They are the same size and the HD package will have the same ride quality you just get 1000 pounds more payload. Bring a quad in the bed with you if you want.

The 150 you quoted above is better than the LC for towing but if you are going to spend the cash get more truck for the same money. You can get a 1 year old 250 super crew with 10,000 miles for low 30s decked out.

GoLeafsGo 12-23-2017 06:12 PM

I know this probably isn’t the right site, but is it possible to change the second row seat to have 3 full seats?

325BH 12-23-2017 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokeyWren (Post 3957096)



But they never reduce GVWR because of warranty concerns or whether a truck is a class 2 or class 3 truck. The PEs would never stand for that sort of nonsense.


Absolutely they do. An F350 SRW with 10,000 GVWR is the same truck as an F350 SRW with 11,500 GVWR.

In many cases, an F250 with 10,000 GVWR is the same truck as an F350 SRW with 11,500 GVWR.

The difference between 10,000 GVWR and 11,500 GVWR is class 2 vs class 3. It can also change registration in some locals. It can also affect CDL classes in some cases, depending on trailer.

Most of the time it is a paper difference and not a truck difference.

JIMNLIN 12-23-2017 08:28 PM

Quote:

In your efforts to justify overloading a tow vehicle, you are pulling stuff out of thin air.

GVWR is established by professional engineers (PE) in chassis design.

GVWR involves more than just axle and tire ratings. GVWR also is limited by braking capacity and frame strength. You may not exceed the GAWR of your tow vehicle, but if you exceed the GVWR (or payload capacity) of your tow vehicle, you may not have enough braking capacity to stop the rig. Or your frame may not be strong enough to haul the weight the GAWR could handle.

Granted, in some cases, the manufacturer offers an option of a lower GVWR than standard because of registration fees, such as the GVWR of the F-350 SRW. But that's the exception, not the rule. Any buyer with two brain cells to rub together knows that the F-350 SRW with the optional 10,000 GVWR pkg is identical to the same truck with 11,500 GVWR.

But they never reduce GVWR because of warranty concerns or whether a truck is a class 2 or class 3 truck. The PEs would never stand for that sort of nonsense.
Braking is not a function of a truck makers GVWR but the the truck makers individual GAWRs at a minimum.
example; a F350SRW with a 7230 rawr and a 6000 lb fawr = 13230 lbs of braking performance.
Same with the tandem axle trailer with 7k axles = 14000 lbs of braking performance.
The sum of any vehicles axle ratings at a minimum = its total braking ability....not a GVWR number.
A truck makers isn't about to put a truck on the road that the frame or brakes can't handle a load from its RAWR/FAWR. Thats one reason the truck makers GVWR isn't used from any legal standpoint including any civil lawsuit we read so much about on rv websites.

Fords F150 with 19 different gvwr packages from 6000 up to 8200. Ford isn't about to build 19 different size frame or brake packages simply because of a gvwr number.
The F150 comes with up to 5 different rawr packages from 4800 lb down to 3300 lb.

Same with most models of Dodge/Ram and GM 2500/3500 srw trucks. In some cases the only difference is a gvwr number for warranty or tax or registration considerations.
Fleet Ford spec website is a great place from Ford engineering on weights and actual mechanical specs for the same as or differences.

PastorRon 12-23-2017 08:38 PM

Check My Numbers Please
 
Trucks are not all built equal. I bought a F-250 diesel about a year ago without doing my research. I didn’t look at the payload numbers on the pillar at all. So when I became a little more enlightened I trotted out to my truck to look at the numbers. Are you kidding me? Payload was only 1985 lbs. really? The tongue weight on the 5er that we were looking at was less than the max towing of 15,100 pounds but was way over the payload rating of the truck. So time to get some education. I figured out the truck had 20 inch tires, 3.55 rear end, no max payload package or max payload package. It was definitely a pretender when it came to towing. So I traded it in for a purpose built F-150 with all the towing and payload gear and the frame and engine configuration for max payload. Now I have a F-150 that can tow 11,200 with a max payload of 3,200 pounds. We found the 5er we liked came in a TT version that falls within 80% of the F-150 ratings. It was not within the payload of the F-250 we traded for the F-150. Purposefully building the F-150 worked for us and yes we had to order the truck. No one within 1000 miles had one configuration properly for max payload.

xrated 12-24-2017 03:34 AM

PastorRon wrote:
Quote:

I have a F-150 that can tow 11,200 with a max payload of 3,200 pounds.
Care to share a picture of the yellow/white payload sticker on the driver's side door post of that payload capacity.....I'm finding that to be way more than I would have ever thought possible?


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:56 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.