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-   -   Check My Numbers Please (https://www.irv2.com/forums/f45/check-my-numbers-please-372151.html)

dayle1 12-24-2017 05:33 AM

Quote:
In your efforts to justify overloading a tow vehicle, you are pulling stuff out of thin air.

GVWR is established by professional engineers (PE) in chassis design.

GVWR involves more than just axle and tire ratings. GVWR also is limited by braking capacity and frame strength. You may not exceed the GAWR of your tow vehicle, but if you exceed the GVWR (or payload capacity) of your tow vehicle, you may not have enough braking capacity to stop the rig. Or your frame may not be strong enough to haul the weight the GAWR could handle.



Quote:

Originally Posted by JIMNLIN (Post 3957675)
Braking is not a function of a truck makers GVWR but the the truck makers individual GAWRs at a minimum.
example; a F350SRW with a 7230 rawr and a 6000 lb fawr = 13230 lbs of braking performance.
Same with the tandem axle trailer with 7k axles = 14000 lbs of braking performance.
The sum of any vehicles axle ratings at a minimum = its total braking ability....not a GVWR number.
A truck makers isn't about to put a truck on the road that the frame or brakes can't handle a load from its RAWR/FAWR. Thats one reason the truck makers GVWR isn't used from any legal standpoint including any civil lawsuit we read so much about on rv websites.

.

I agree 100%. Exceeding GVWR is not the safety issue that so many want to paint it. Maybe a long term reliability concern but not an end of the world safety issue. Sure braking performance will suffer with more weight, but if that is the concern, then don't tow anything, but the impact is not catastrophic. Those Professional Engineers at the manufacturers should know all the regulations and since most states only require trailer brakes when towing over 2000 lbs, then vehicles should be designed with enough brake capability to safely handle full GVWR plus 2000 lbs. Right?

Anyone concerned about braking performance should focus not on the amount of weight involved but how well all of the brakes, truck and trailer are performing and how well the brake controller is working. Anytime the truck brakes are being used to stop the trailer, then that is the real safety issue.

xrated 12-24-2017 06:47 AM

dayle1 wrote:
Quote:

Those Professional Engineers at the manufacturers should know all the regulations and since most states only require trailer brakes when towing over 2000 lbs, then vehicles should be designed with enough brake capability to safely handle full GVWR plus 2000 lbs. Right?
LOL, that's like saying it's OK to exceed your payload by 2000 lbs.....after all, it was certified to be able to handle xxx amount of weight, so going over 2000 lbs is OK...Right!

Your statement would be pretty funny if I thought you were joking! :banghead:

dayle1 12-24-2017 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xrated (Post 3957961)
dayle1 wrote:


LOL, that's like saying it's OK to exceed your payload by 2000 lbs.....after all, it was certified to be able to handle xxx amount of weight, so going over 2000 lbs is OK...Right!

Your statement would be pretty funny if I thought you were joking! :banghead:

You are right, I'm not joking. BUT you are wrong, they are not the same issue. I was not talking about CARRYING 2000 extra lbs, but specifically STOPPING full GVWR plus a trailer that is not required by law to have it's own braking system. That has to be the design criteria. No manufacturer states that GVWR must be reduced by any towed weight lacking it's own brakes.

keymastr 12-24-2017 08:28 AM

No, but common sense does. So carrying a full load of bricks AND towing a 2000 pound trailer is OK to you and around town it probably is, but not as a every trip on the highway thing. And what if the trailer brakes get greased? Nice to have a little more truck.

He is buying another truck anyway, why do you want to talk him in to buying another insufficient truck? Doesn't make sense. If he wanted to tow on the edge of legal or over it he would just stick with the vehicle he has.

PastorRon 12-24-2017 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xrated (Post 3957828)
PastorRon wrote:





Care to share a picture of the yellow/white payload sticker on the driver's side door post of that payload capacity.....I'm finding that to be way more than I would have ever thought possible?



When I get back to Arkansas I will.

dayle1 12-24-2017 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keymastr (Post 3958103)
And what if the trailer brakes get greased? Nice to have a little more truck.

And what if this and what if that? If a little more truck is nice then why not even more truck?

Not trying to convince someone of what they need . But OP is already downsizing the trailer, so is a TV upgrade also needed?

Weight is just one aspect of safety. Maybe new tires on the truck or a ProPride 3 hitch would be better safety investments. OP stated his desire to use the LC off-road, an empty PU might be less adequate.

Anyway, I don't know the OP's specific situation , but he certainly deserves the full compliment of inputs so HE can make his best decision.

GoLeafsGo 12-24-2017 11:04 AM

I certainly appreciate all the input. Luckily I don’t have to worry about the trailer till it arrives in March, so there’s time to make the correct decision.

I plan on contacting CHP after Christmas to get the full scoop, as well as my insurance agent.

I am confident that with the way that Land Cruisers are built and the fact that the UN puts ballistic armor on them and fills them with combat ready grown men and weapons all over the world, that stupid sticker is just a product of a nanny state.

Beefed up suspension, tires, and brakes, as well as re-gearing to 4.88 further make me believe that I would not be endangering my family or others by towing a trailer under 7,000 lbs.

Having said that, I don’t want some shaister lawyer suing me for everything I own because of a sticker. That’s really what I need to clarify. If I’m told I’m opening myself up to financial ruin by exceeding the GVWR sticker I will have to begrudgingly sell the LC and buy a pickup.

As far as the type of pickup, I guess at that point I’ll overkill it and get a 2500 type because, honestly, as great as the
F-150 is in comparison, the sticker issue still applies. An extra 300 sticker pounds doesn’t solve anything especially when having to account for an extra 12 gallons of fuel because of the bigger tank.

GoLeafsGo 12-24-2017 11:34 AM

Another reason I have a hard time with these “manufacturer’s numbers” arrived at by “professional engineers”:

The manual my 2013 LC came with says

GCWR = 14,400 lbs

The online Toyota “2013 Land Cruiser Product Inflation” pdf says

GCWR = 15,885 lbs

Gordon Dewald 12-24-2017 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dayle1 (Post 3957515)
Regarding the blank, best I can find is there is no requirement for a declared weight for passenger vehicles, only commercial vehicles (which includes pickup trucks that have the stock bed replaced with an aftermarket bed). Therefore you cannot be stopped for being overloaded. Clearly there is no listed weight for determining excess weight. Someone commented that a Geo Metro could be loaded to 20k lbs per axle if the tire ratings weren't exceeded. So tire rating would be the only limitation. However, for passenger vehicles, overloaded is also defined as too much cargo and/or passengers that obstruct rear view mirrors.

My experience with weight restrictions on passenger vehicles is limited but I worked with Transport Officers on large truck hauls on construction projects.

Any officer (including transport officers) can pull you on to a scale at their discretion should they think you are in an unsafe overloaded condition.

Cost a friend $800 in fines and he had to get another trailer to split the load when he was caught with his half ton and U-Haul trailer.

keymastr 12-24-2017 12:34 PM

Neither the manual or online brochure matter. The yellow loading sticker on YOUR truck is what counts. You can go to a row of trucks on any car lot and look at each trucks sticker and the weights will be different depending on what cab/bed configuration, options, drivetrain etc.

At this point you may as well try it with the LC. My guess is you will be over the payload with just the trailer. If you plan on 3 people going with you you might be at double the payload. But it doesn't cost you anything to load it up and get a good 3 pass weight at the scales. Be sure to get a good WD hitch with built in sway control. Equalizer 4 point, Blue ox or Reese centerline are all good hitches. 1000 pound bars should be good for that trailer.

At least you know going in that it may come down to buying a truck soon after picking up the trailer. I was unaware since my numbers looked so much better than yours. Short wheelbase tow vehicles don't work that great with large heavy trailers. A gust of wind from the side or a box truck coming from behind will make you think about a different truck.

dayle1 12-24-2017 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordon Dewald (Post 3958425)

Any officer (including transport officers) can pull you on to a scale at their discretion should they think you are in an unsafe overloaded condition.

But they need a number to judge actual weight against to determine if the vehicle is overloaded. If the registration paperwork on file in the state doesn't have a weight number, then what can they legally use? Sure, the GVWR on the sticker is the obvious answer, but I wonder if anyone in Ca. using a passenger vehicle, which the LC is, has had this happen?

dayle1 12-24-2017 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keymastr (Post 3958432)
The yellow loading sticker on YOUR truck is what counts.

Be sure to get a good WD hitch with built in sway control. Equalizer 4 point, Blue ox or Reese centerline are all good hitches.

This is exactly my point, exceeding the GVWR is a problem, need better truck. But a good WD hitch is fine? Why not the ProPride 3 or HA, aren't they even better? Why worry about weight on the tow vehicle and wheelbase and not use the best sway control available?

Aren't there multiple ways to minimize the tail wagging the dog? Maybe it takes all of them, maybe not. But if sway is the concern, then the best solution absolutely begins at the back. Smaller, lighter trailer, and secure stance axle spacing. Then best hitch available. Finally a bigger, longer WB tow vehicle.

GoLeafsGo 12-24-2017 04:30 PM

Tires are Nitto Ridge Grapplers :
LT285/70/R18 rated 3860 lbs @ 80 psi

The carrying capacity on the sticker is based on passenger tires:

The factory sticker says “GAWR Front (3595LB) with P285/60R18 Rims at 240KPA (33PSI)” and “GAWR Rear (4300LB) with P285/60R18 Rims at 240KPA (33PSI)”.

Seems to me that upgrading to LT tires with much greater load capacity should be taken under consideration in a court of law despite the yellow sticker.

Rear suspension was upgraded to Old Man Emu Heavy Duty springs engineered to “provide noticeable improvements to a vehicle’s performance, including load carrying capacity and control characteristics”. I did this prior to purchasing the previous travel trailer, a Nash 23F.

Again, I towed that thing for over 20K miles without a single issue. Did I have to slow down at times due to excessive side winds? Yes. Did I keep an eye out for semis passing me at 85mph? Sure, but I stuck to 62mph and kept on chugging, and the Equalizer WD hitch kept us safe and swaying was minimal.

My plan was to upgrade to the Blue Ox Sway Pro with 1,000 lb bars this time around. I have a brake controller but was also going to upgrade to new Wildwood brakes all around. Because of the 34” tires and a bit of gear hunting while towing mountain passes I was going to re-gear to Nitro 4.88 gears.

Would a long wheelbase Ram 2500 with a 6.7 Cummins tow better? Like a champ it would! Would I be able to explore the same trails once we get to our destinations? Not likely. Would I be able to separate my kids using a third row? Obviously not.

I really am curious how the law looks at GVWR. I know that California’s vehicle code 42030.1.(a) defines “fines imposed for a conviction of a violation of operating a vehicle in excess of it's declared gross vehicle weight“. Interestingly, the fines range from $250 - $2000, but the lowest fine is set for drivers who are 1,001 - 1,500 lbs over. Does this mean that it’s legally acceptable to be up to 1,000 lbs over? Does this only apply to commercial vehicles?

GoLeafsGo 12-24-2017 04:32 PM

Also, Merry Christmas all!!


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