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-   -   Check My Numbers Please (https://www.irv2.com/forums/f45/check-my-numbers-please-372151.html)

GoLeafsGo 12-24-2017 05:11 PM

One last thing:

the rating for the original tires - 2756 lbs @ 51 max psi

AA4TG 12-24-2017 05:36 PM

As a prior big rig owner operator, I guarantee you that taxafornia highway patrol does not give commercial vehicles any leeway on weight. If I were even in a slight fender bender that wasn't my fault and was overweight, I would sweat bullets. In most other states I would only be worried about the insurance company lawyer s.

AA4TG 12-24-2017 05:51 PM

Sorry, a line got left out.
If I were towing anything, including a tt or 5er I would be worried in Ca.

GoLeafsGo 12-24-2017 05:56 PM

You might be the right person to ask. Is there a government agency that re-evaluates GVWR and GAWR based on modifications?

JIMNLIN 12-24-2017 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dayle1 (Post 3958566)
But they need a number to judge actual weight against to determine if the vehicle is overloaded. If the registration paperwork on file in the state doesn't have a weight number, then what can they legally use? Sure, the GVWR on the sticker is the obvious answer, but I wonder if anyone in Ca. using a passenger vehicle, which the LC is, has had this happen?

GVWR or the payload sticker isn't used in any jurisdiction to determine a overloaded vehicle. My state for example has no weight for registration of a non commercial truck. Dot simple use the trucks FAWR/RAWR/tire ratings.

One rv website member already contacted California dot by email (in 2009) with the same questions about GVWR and GCWR. This email answer came from a CVO Commander (very long and snipped for length)

**Q: “Many of the owners travel over their tow vehicle GVWR and /or
GCWR. Are there any state laws against this? Or does the owner just
take the risk if they wish?”

A: The California Vehicle Code (CVC) does not contain a law that
specifically limits the amount of weight a vehicle may tow based on the
towing vehicle GVWR or GCWR. There are, however, laws that limit the
amount a vehicle may tow based on other criteria.
snip
Section 1085(d) of Title 13 California Code of Regulations prohibits
the loading of tires above the maximum load rating marked on the tire,
or if unmarked the maximum load rating as specified in the applicable
Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard, or in a publication furnished to
the public by the tire manufacturer. This would most likely happen in
the case of a pickup truck towing a large fifth wheel travel trailer, as
those types of trailers tend to transfer a larger portion of their
weight to the last axle of the towing unit causing that axle to exceed
the tire load limits.

I trust this has adequately answered your questions. Should you desire
any further information, please contact Officer Ron Leimer, of my staff,
at (916) 445-1865.
Sincerely, S. B. DOWLING, Captain
Commander
Commercial Vehicle Section"

Pretty simple...do not exceed the tire load limits on the last axle (RAWR).......and a registered weight of some kind if required by your state.

xrated 12-25-2017 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JIMNLIN (Post 3958960)
GVWR or the payload sticker isn't used in any jurisdiction to determine a overloaded vehicle. My state for example has no weight for registration of a non commercial truck. Dot simple use the trucks FAWR/RAWR/tire ratings.

One rv website member already contacted California dot by email (in 2009) with the same questions about GVWR and GCWR. This email answer came from a CVO Commander (very long and snipped for length)

**Q: “Many of the owners travel over their tow vehicle GVWR and /or
GCWR. Are there any state laws against this? Or does the owner just
take the risk if they wish?”

A: The California Vehicle Code (CVC) does not contain a law that
specifically limits the amount of weight a vehicle may tow based on the
towing vehicle GVWR or GCWR. There are, however, laws that limit the
amount a vehicle may tow based on other criteria.
snip
Section 1085(d) of Title 13 California Code of Regulations prohibits
the loading of tires above the maximum load rating marked on the tire,
or if unmarked the maximum load rating as specified in the applicable
Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard, or in a publication furnished to
the public by the tire manufacturer. This would most likely happen in
the case of a pickup truck towing a large fifth wheel travel trailer, as
those types of trailers tend to transfer a larger portion of their
weight to the last axle of the towing unit causing that axle to exceed
the tire load limits.

I trust this has adequately answered your questions. Should you desire
any further information, please contact Officer Ron Leimer, of my staff,
at (916) 445-1865.
Sincerely, S. B. DOWLING, Captain
Commander
Commercial Vehicle Section"

Pretty simple...do not exceed the tire load limits on the last axle (RAWR).......and a registered weight of some kind if required by your state.

And that will still not stop an attorney/law firm from filing and possibly winning a civil suit against someone for willful neglect if they are at fault for a serious or fatal accident. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems very logical to me that if I leave my house, knowing that I am over capacity with one or more of the stated weight limits, as listed by the vehicle manufacturer, then I am opening myself up to litigation in a civil suit if I cause an accident. There may be no legal basis on the books, but I suspect that a good attorney could argue willful negligence based on the fact that I was overloaded according to the manufacturers numbers. Personally, I'm not willing to take that chance.

AA4TG 12-25-2017 04:41 AM

I don't know of any governmental departmwent/agency that will do to the engineering work needed to up your weight ratings.
If I were you, I would really hate to take the chance of injuring my family or damaging that very nice tv over a stability issue. But, I do tend to tend to lean toward 'what if' instead of 'why not' when it comes to safety.
Hope you get this decision made soon so you can enjoy your new tt.

keymastr 12-25-2017 07:32 AM

To my knowledge the only time a vehicle can be re-certified is at an upfitter such as when a conversion van is finished. Motorhomes also get re-certified with new stickers based on the new weight. They get delivered as a bare chassis with weight ratings based on current weight then get re-certified when finished based on new weight. It is possible that some upfitter makes a package with re-certification but I doubt it.

Hope you have a great Christmas.

dayle1 12-25-2017 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xrated (Post 3959060)
And that will still not stop an attorney/law firm from filing and possibly winning a civil suit against someone for willful neglect if they are at fault for a serious or fatal accident. Personally, I'm not willing to take that chance.

That can happen when within all possible limits and not at fault. The only protection is not traveling or an umbrella insurance policy.

Gordon Dewald 12-25-2017 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dayle1 (Post 3958566)
But they need a number to judge actual weight against to determine if the vehicle is overloaded. If the registration paperwork on file in the state doesn't have a weight number, then what can they legally use? Sure, the GVWR on the sticker is the obvious answer, but I wonder if anyone in Ca. using a passenger vehicle, which the LC is, has had this happen?

Don't know and don't care. It seems many believe that Transport Officers are unaware and confused when it comes to determining weights and how to determine specifications and limits. Ever since my friend was pulled over, weighed and ticketed I believe it can happen, may not be often but it does happen.

Additionally why would anyone want to take their family in a vehicle that is loaded beyond the specifications. You can rationalize all you want but it is your family.

xrated 12-25-2017 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dayle1 (Post 3959307)
That can happen when within all possible limits and not at fault. The only protection is not traveling or an umbrella insurance policy.

The big difference is........I'm not wearing a target on my back and those that are towing overloaded are not only wearing a target, the bullseye is clearly marked. I seriously doubt that knowingly towing overloaded or above the manufacturers stated/posted warning against it, would get thrown out as a frivolous lawsuit. Towing within those parameters and not being "at fault" would likely earn you a free pass with no consequences. I'll take the latter please!

hitekrdnk 12-25-2017 11:23 AM

I was towing a 6500# wet weight TT with a 1500 Ram. Everything was weighed out and I was just barely within my towing specs. It worked fine, but I just didn't like being that close to my max limits. So we upgraded to a 2500 to get more capacity and breathing room on safety. This is something I should have done from the beginning. The closer we get to our trip to Arizona the happier I am that we upgraded. It's always better to have more truck than we need.

JIMNLIN 12-25-2017 09:07 PM

Quote:

And that will still not stop an attorney/law firm from filing and possibly winning a civil suit against someone for willful neglect if they are at fault for a serious or fatal accident. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems very logical to me that if I leave my house, knowing that I am over capacity with one or more of the stated weight limits, as listed by the vehicle manufacturer, then I am opening myself up to litigation in a civil suit if I cause an accident. There may be no legal basis on the books, but I suspect that a good attorney could argue willful negligence based on the fact that I was overloaded according to the manufacturers numbers. Personally, I'm not willing to take that chance.
Agree your not a lawyer nor will a smart lawyer use a truck makers gvwr in a court of law for that purpose. When a LDT maker says his trucks gvwrs can be the sum of the trucks gawrs then not even a dumb lawyer would attempt to use a lower gvwr number in any type of legal overweight action.

Every LDT truck in commercial service out here on the road can be carrying weight up to the sum of the truck makers axle ratings and can be registered as such and we never face civil lawsuits for what we read on a rv website. Sure we face overweight tickets...or placed out of service ....and civil lawsuits if were over a trucks steer axle....drive axle....trailer axle legal load limits or a declared gross or gross combined weight and are held at fault in a accident.

Why is it just RV folks that face civil lawsuits for the same infractions/scenarios with the same exact trucks ? Commerce sure doesn't.

GoLeafsGo 12-26-2017 10:35 AM

Between all of your contributions and the research I have done on my own I think I will be just fine. I have done calculations which I will break down below. Feel free to check my math and logic.

I will start by reviewing the facts. Please keep in mind that the TT numbers are based on manufacturer’s specifications and not on the actual unit, which will not be delivered till March. The 2018 model is very similar to the 2017 specs with one major change: the u-shaped dinette was changed to a booth dinette. I’m not sure there will be a weight difference, and I will weigh everything when the TT arrives and report back.

All weights are in pounds.

TV GCWR = 14,400 (online manual says 15,885)
TV GVWR = 7,385
TV GAWR(F) = 3,595
TV GAWR(R) = 4,300
Max Hitch = 850
TV Manual Recommended Tongue % = 9%-11%
LC + full tank + me = 6,260 (real # weighed last week)
Wife and kids = 380
Actual curb weight with full tank + passengers = 6,640

TT Dry Weight = 5,295
TT Dry Hitch Weight = 695
TT Max Weight with X4 Package = 7,500
Full Fresh Tank (78 gallons x 8.3) = 648
Black Tank with 5 gallons to start trip = 42
2 lithium batteries + secure box + propane = 150
Cargo = 500
Estimated TT Curb Weight = 6,635

The TT dry tongue is 13% of the TT dry weight so I will go with that calculation moving forward, although the sticker disciples should be screaming for 11% since that’s what Toyota recommends in the manual and we all know you can’t mess with manufacturers’ numbers ;) Seeing that 11% is more forgiving than 13%, I will go with 13%.

Curb TV + Curb TT = 13,275
GCWR - 13,275 = 1,125
GCWR is good (-1,125)

TT Curb Weight x 0.13 (13%) = Wet Tongue Weight
6,635 x 0.13 = 863

Using a WD Hitch, 1/3 (0.34) of the tongue load is shifted to the TT axles and 2/3 (0.67) to the TV.

Wet Tongue Weight x 0.67 = Tongue Weight added to TV
863 x 0.67 = 578

TV GVWR - TV Curb Weight - TV Tongue Weight
7,385 - 6,635 - 578 = 172
TV GVWR is good (-172)

TT Wet Curb Weight + 1/3 distributed tongue weight
6,635 + 293 (863 x 0.34) = 6,928

TT GVWR - TT Wet and 1/3 distributed tongue weight
7,500 - 6,928 = 572
TT GVWR is good (-572)

So, if I go with 13% tongue weight and I travel with 78 gallons of fresh water (which will never happen), as long as I don’t go too much over 500 pounds of cargo I’m within sticker limits. Now, were I to use 11% as my target hitch percentage as recommended by Toyota, that cushion grows even more.

None of the TV numbers used above take into account going from P tires to LT tires, beefed up HD suspension, beefed up brakes, and re-gearing.

My conclusion: the LC will do just fine.

I will hold off re-gearing and upgrading the brakes till after receiving the trailer and getting scale weights, in case the numbers are off and I end up having to get a heavy duty truck after all.


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