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41magnum 12-03-2019 04:28 AM

Propane oil?
 
I removed a hose from a 15 lb propane tank filled 15 yrs ago and an oil came out.
Can I hook up an appliance and use it or should I release it all and refill?
Never seen this before.
thanx

richard5933 12-03-2019 05:26 AM

Is this a portable tank or one mounted in the coach?

Is this a tank which requires re-certification?

If the tank requires re-cert, then you're past due and a visit to your local propane dealer is in order anyhow. Let them evacuate the remaining fuel and inspect/clean the tank before refilling.

If the tank is permanently mounted, you still might benefit from having it inspected by a propane dealer before refilling. Lots can happen to valves and regulators sitting idle for 15 years.

spdracr39 12-03-2019 06:35 AM

Don't use it. For one it is out of certification date. Second the oil that has separated can plug up the small orifices in your appliances and cause havoc. Once it gets into the system it is hard to remove. In the end it will be a lot easier just to buy a new tank.

grindstone01 12-03-2019 08:37 AM

Propane does not go bad and it should be good to use. If you are concerned, then use it for your backyard grill or something. If you take it to a propane dealer, they will charge you to empty it and recert the tank. If this is a 20lb bottle and you are still concerned, then trade it in at a exchange place.

Gary RVRoamer 12-03-2019 08:45 AM

Don't use it - the oil will clog any regulator or burner jet is reaches. The gas bottle needs to be evacuated and cleaned internally. Given the cost of LP gas services these days, you can probably buy a new tank for less. Especially since that one is expired and needs re-certification anyway.

The John 12-04-2019 02:52 PM

as others have said dont use it, take it to one of the exchange a bottle places and get a new one. =-)

Jim_HiTek 12-04-2019 02:59 PM

As others have said, best not to use it...here's where the oil came from:

...if overheated, propane can ‘crack’ (as in petrochemical refining). This is when heavy end residuals or ‘heavy ends’ break off the molecules and become oily or waxy like residues that can clog the lines or regulators. The temperature where this can happen is usually given as above 130įF.

So if you're seeing an oily residue, that propane is no good anyway so it should be pumped out, the tank cleaned.

Roger G 12-04-2019 06:30 PM

Itís probably not oil but alcohol. During cold weather dealers put alcohol in tanks to keep regulators from freezing.

Ray,IN 12-07-2019 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger G (Post 5063226)
Itís probably not oil but alcohol. During cold weather dealers put alcohol in tanks to keep regulators from freezing.

This is a 3G/15# cylinder per original post.

grindstone01 12-08-2019 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger G (Post 5063226)
It’s probably not oil but alcohol. During cold weather dealers put alcohol in tanks to keep regulators from freezing.


In my couple years of propane delivery employment, I never hear of that.

MoparHauler 12-08-2019 07:54 PM

On my last Rv, when my propane generator quit working I removed the propane regulator on the generator and it had a thick black oily substance in a lot of the orifice(s). After cleaning it ran fine. So did the oil come from propane?

shootist 12-08-2019 08:34 PM

In a stationary tank they used to put the stinky smell in the tank so you instantly knew you had a leak. It was oil based and incredibly vile. The scent in natural gas is the same type of thing, I think it is so potent you could convulse if it got on you. Did it really smell?

Mr_D 12-08-2019 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The John (Post 5063002)
as others have said dont use it, take it to one of the exchange a bottle places and get a new one. =-)

Just remember that those exchange tanks are only about 2/3rd's full so they're pretty expensive to use all the time.

grindstone01 12-08-2019 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_D (Post 5068248)
Just remember that those exchange tanks are only about 2/3rd's full so they're pretty expensive to use all the time.


But it's the best/cheapest way to upgrade a 20lb tank which can then be refilled at any local LP dealer. Just remove the tank label/advertisement.

The John 12-09-2019 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_D (Post 5068248)
Just remember that those exchange tanks are only about 2/3rd's full so they're pretty expensive to use all the time.

Agreed, I meant as a way to get a new tank (with the correct valve) then have it filled going forward. Its been my experience that this is the cheaper way of getting a newer tank (but of course YMMV). :angel:

BillandLiz 12-09-2019 07:20 PM

My experience was the oil came from the hose itself which leaches out over time. Coleman as an example sells a small inline filter for that purpose. Many of the other folks are correct regarding malfunction of appliances etc. I too had those problems. You might try stopping at a place where they sell "propane and propane accessories" and ask. Keep us posted and have great holiday season.

Ray,IN 12-10-2019 04:25 PM

The name is, Liquefied Petroleum Gas/ LPG, there is going to be a tiny bit of oil settle to the bottom of a propane container over a long period of time, and it's normally never a problem. That oily substance comes from Ethyl Mercaptan, an oily substance. It is added to LPG before it is delivered to customers. It's only purpose is to warn people a flammable gas is present, as LPG has no natural odor.
A household LPG line must have a "drip leg" installed prior to those appliances though. For an unknown reason RV's do not have a drip leg in the LPG line.
No, there is no alcohol added to an LP system(can you imagine what would happen when it reaches a burner?), where would it and the oil it supposedly removes go but to the appliance burners?
FWIW, I removed the pipe cap on the bottom of the drip leg in my household LPG system once in the last 49 years, nothing drained out. I haven't a clue how much "oil" is in the bottom of my 1,000G LPG tank at home.
Contrary to what some believe, LPG never goes bad, contaminated possibility, never bad.

TwoGrizz 12-10-2019 08:13 PM

I retired from the propane biz after 22 years. These answers are very entertaining. :whistling::popcorn:

grindstone01 12-10-2019 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoGrizz (Post 5070502)
I retired from the propane biz after 22 years. These answers are very entertaining. :whistling::popcorn:


So what is your take on the oil source then?? It's not something I ran into during my 2 years of residential delivery.

NH3Guy 12-10-2019 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoGrizz (Post 5070502)
I retired from the propane biz after 22 years. These answers are very entertaining. :whistling::popcorn:

It's kind of like the mill I use to go into and watch the forklift drivers come out and refuel their lift. One pulled the hose off and opened the valve and blew off the remaining, and when asked why, it was to release the pressure so he could refill! :banghead:

Excesses 12-11-2019 01:10 AM

I wouldnít use it.

As for refilling, arenít lpg cylinders date stamped like here in Canada? After 10 years, one will not find anyone willing to refill it. Nobody.

DJ

grindstone01 12-11-2019 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Excesses (Post 5070706)
I wouldnít use it.

As for refilling, arenít lpg cylinders date stamped like here in Canada? After 10 years, one will not find anyone willing to refill it. Nobody.

DJ


You can re-certify the tank and then they can be refilled, cost is around $10. Besides, the OP has a full tank and is trying to decide what to do with the gas.

richard5933 12-11-2019 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grindstone01 (Post 5071302)
You can re-certify the tank and then they can be refilled, cost is around $10. Besides, the OP has a full tank and is trying to decide what to do with the gas.


If the tank is taken to a propane dealer for re-certification, the dealer can capture the gas currently in the tank. However, if it's contaminated with oil it may need to be disposed of, which I'm sure the dealer can also advise on.

PSOUZA 12-11-2019 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grindstone01 (Post 5070507)
So what is your take on the oil source then?? It's not something I ran into during my 2 years of residential delivery.




Several yeas ago I was heavily into analyzing the propane delivery problems associated with the Winnebago Reyo motor home and its derivatives. I assembled a paper describing some of the issues and the problems we solved. It is archived on this forum. Just look under "More" and "files" under the Forum header.


Briefly..some corrections.


Mercaptain is not an oil. It is a chemical resembling alcohol with a density of .8. Lighter than water. It is miscible in propane (it dissolves) and remains in that state until the propane vaporizes. It is very reactive with iron oxide and elastomers used in flexible hoses. Iron oxide will be neutralized by mercaptan and deplete the mercaptan requiring replenishment by shippers and handlers.
https://www.irv2.com//external-conten...yfacts.org.icohttps://www.chemicalsafetyfacts.org/methyl-mercaptan/


https://www.cpchem.com/bl/specchem/en...mercaptan.aspx





Propane is an excellent solvent and will absorb any oil, other than asphalt based oils, on contact, until the propane becomes saturated. The oil will remain in suspension until the final state change when propane completely vaporizes. At that point, all oils and other contaminants that were dissolved in the propane will settle out (condense) on surfaces of the regulator and low pressure hoses.


The "cracking" mentioned by one poster is a real problem with externally heated vapor generation systems on fork lifts and commercial heating systems but not in typical RV systems.


The comments on oil contamination seems to have originated from a private study funded by the City of Stockton, California where no conclusive determinations were made other than some contamination was present.


Some common sense can put this in perspective. This breakdown of flexible polymers occurs only at high pressure, as attested to by the Reyo recall of several years ago by Winnebago where only the two high pressure lines had decomposed. The Low pressure lines were still serviceable.


The total length of the hoses in these systems were less than 3 feet yet the amount of "oil" recovered was measured in ounces and never diminished over time. Compare the space consumed by those oils inside the solid polymer with the volume of the polymer itself. Of course the oil problems continued to persist after the recall was completed. This "theory" doesn't pass the smell test.


I have intentionally tried not to be confrontational. Just stating facts that I had to locate in order to rationally attempt to explain symptoms and arrive at a correct repair solution. This may require some thought on how this applies to some of the previous post content. I have also simplified some aspects, obviously, for space.

Phil

TwoGrizz 12-11-2019 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grindstone01 (Post 5070507)
So what is your take on the oil source then?? It's not something I ran into during my 2 years of residential delivery.

Not enough info given from the OP to give a good answer.
Is it a tank hard mounted in a MH or a cylinder clamped on the front of a TT ?
There are usually no hoses on a tank permanently mounted to a vehicle except maybe for filling.

As some replies suggest taking it to a qualified propane dealer would be my call. Not the guy that fills it at the truck stop or convenience store.

Ray,IN 12-13-2019 09:51 AM

OSOUZA , Thanks for the informative reply. I stand corrected, I relied on my information from four decades ago when I was on a volunteer fire dept. I just read https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Ethanethiol in addition to your links, to further my education.

PSOUZA 12-13-2019 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray,IN (Post 5073162)
OSOUZA , Thanks for the informative reply. I just read https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Ethanethiol in addition to your links, to further my education.


Interesting observation during the Winnebago recall of the propane hoses several years back. When approaching the propane compartment, prior to replacing the hoses, a fairly strong mercaptan odor was present. Application of "bubble liquid" failed to reveal a source. That included the surface of all the high pressure hoses.


After removal of the hoses, a very strong odor was present on my hands, and the hose surface reeked of it.


24 hours later, the hoses were odor free on the exterior.


The conclusion I made from that was the mercaptan was able to penetrate the hose polymer readily, and had leached out the plasticiser. Not really a surprise since something had to cause the early demise of the hose material. Note: The OEM hoses showed marked degradation (stiffness, loss of flexibility) within a month or two of start of service.



Note that the migration was outward and removes some credibility of the theory that oil contamination of the propane comes from the hoses. More thought and observations needed here, but corroboration from an authoritative source would be best. As of two years ago, there was none that was conclusive. The Stocton, Ca. study was pathetically inept and a waste of taxpayer money.


Phil

Ray,IN 12-13-2019 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSOUZA (Post 5073347)
Interesting observation during the Winnebago recall of the propane hoses several years back. When approaching the propane compartment, prior to replacing the hoses, a fairly strong mercaptan odor was present. Application of "bubble liquid" failed to reveal a source. That included the surface of all the high pressure hoses.


After removal of the hoses, a very strong odor was present on my hands, and the hose surface reeked of it.


24 hours later, the hoses were odor free on the exterior.


The conclusion I made from that was the mercaptan was able to penetrate the hose polymer readily, and had leached out the plasticiser. Not really a surprise since something had to cause the early demise of the hose material. Note: The OEM hoses showed marked degradation (stiffness, loss of flexibility) within a month or two of start of service.



Note that the migration was outward and removes some credibility of the theory that oil contamination of the propane comes from the hoses. More thought and observations needed here, but corroboration from an authoritative source would be best. As of two years ago, there was none that was conclusive. The Stocton, Ca. study was pathetically inept and a waste of taxpayer money.


Phil

BTW, I did note the Chemicalsafetyfacts.org link is to Methyl Mercaptan, which is not the chemical we are concerned with in this subject.

PSOUZA 12-13-2019 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray,IN (Post 5073409)
BTW, I did note the Chemicalsafetyfacts.org link is to Methyl Mercaptan, which is not the chemical we are concerned with in this subject.


That is why I listed it. They say you learn something new every day....that is my most recent education accomplishment. All previous info sources I have used made no mention that it was not used as an odorant. :thumb: Good catch.



Phil

KanzKran 12-13-2019 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSOUZA (Post 5073347)
After removal of the hoses, a very strong odor was present on my hands, and the hose surface reeked of it.


24 hours later, the hoses were odor free on the exterior.


The conclusion I made from that was the mercaptan was able to penetrate the hose polymer readily, and had leached out the plasticiser. Not really a surprise since something had to cause the early demise of the hose material. Note: The OEM hoses showed marked degradation (stiffness, loss of flexibility) within a month or two of start of service.

I have to wonder if those hoses were actually designed for fuel gas service. Many folks just recommend using 'hydraulic hose', which covers a lot of ground, and a pressure hose (as opposed to a suction line hose) will certainly be able to handle the low pressure of propane, but the interior material may or may not be compatible with fuel gas chemistry.

Much as I'd like to think no coach builder or upfitter would use the wrong material, I think it's all too easy.

PSOUZA 12-13-2019 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KanzKran (Post 5073548)

Much as I'd like to think no coach builder or upfitter would use the wrong material, I think it's all too easy.




It is possible the material (hose) was misrepresented to WBs purchasing department but the responsibility remains with WB.


Certainly WB does not spend much time on proof of fitness, or materials science.

Most all of us have reasons to hold a poor opinion of WBs technical abilities. The propane system of the Reyo and derivitive models had several other bone headed mistakes that rendered cold weather service a "iffy" proposition.

The recalled hoses were rated a 300 lbs and the operating pressure was vicinity 125 lbs.


I don't have much respect for their ability to think out a design and bring it to market.


Phil

41magnum 12-13-2019 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoGrizz (Post 5071555)
Not enough info given from the OP to give a good answer.
Is it a tank hard mounted in a MH or a cylinder clamped on the front of a TT ?.

it is a portable tank, a bit smaller than used on a grill. We used to use it with splitters for the coleman stove and lantern or heater back when we tent camped.

IC2 12-14-2019 07:17 AM

Interesting discussion since I recall a similar, very thin, mercaptan smelly, oily substance with the tanks from our long gone Kountry Aire.

I had a grille tank that was out of the 12 year certification. I never use Blue Rhino since their tanks are never 100% of the usual propane fillers capacity but they took a 20# tank with no questions. I asked the clerk to find a much later cert tank and ened up with one less then a year old. While we looked, saw some really scuzzy tanks - one was 1985 but had the new valve and a recert tag.

To recert a tank, both the local Amerigas and Suburban refill stations will charge $41 plus refill for my spare 30 pounder. My dilemma is do I spend those bucks or $80-90 for a new one that may need to be purged (Flame King brand)

TwoGrizz 12-14-2019 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 41magnum (Post 5073740)
it is a portable tank, a bit smaller than used on a grill. We used to use it with splitters for the coleman stove and lantern or heater back when we tent camped.

The liquid in the cylinder does not go bad,
The vapor in he line (hose) may become degraded and condense.

TwoGrizz 12-14-2019 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IC2 (Post 5074101)
To recert a tank, both the local Amerigas and Suburban refill stations will charge $41 plus refill for my spare 30 pounder. My dilemma is do I spend those bucks or $80-90 for a new one that may need to be purged (Flame King brand)

What is involved in requalifying a propane cylinder????
A visual inspection (look for damage or bad pitting, and insure that it has an OPD valve.)
Record the some of the info on the collar, and put a new date on it.
Then it is good for five more years.

$10 or $15 is over charging. Very few places exchange 30# Cylinders.
New at Sam's club, Costco, Tractor Supply ect. seems better. 12 more years.

richard5933 12-14-2019 08:22 AM

Our coach has two 30-lb forklift tanks for propane. The tanks themselves are from 1974, when the conversion was done. The tanks were in great condition, but obviously long past their due date. When we got the coach a few years ago it seemed wise to take them for inspection/re-cert.

Took them to a local propane dealer qualified to do a re-certification. They did a complete inspection, both inside and outside and replaced a safety valve (not the technical term). I believe that they were pressure tested, and the tech also had to change out the fill valves since they were not sealing well.

Total cost to me, including refilling the tanks, was about $90 each. There was a little added expense due to having to replace the fill valves, something not always needed.

Yeah, for a little bit more I could have replaced the tanks. The problem was that the mounting points in my coach didn't match up with the corresponding points on the new tanks. I would have needed to reconfigure the whole works to get new tanks mounted. Easier just to get them re-certified.

grindstone01 12-14-2019 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IC2 (Post 5074101)
-
To recert a tank, both the local Amerigas and Suburban refill stations will charge $41 plus refill for my spare 30 pounder. My dilemma is do I spend those bucks or $80-90 for a new one that may need to be purged (Flame King brand)


New tanks are shipped from the factory with a vacuum pressure in them and should not need to be purged. You are paying for something not needed.
There should never be any oil in a propane tank. My guess is someone squirted oil into the valve assy.

IC2 12-14-2019 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoGrizz (Post 5074147)
What is involved in requalifying a propane cylinder????
A visual inspection (look for damage or bad pitting, and insure that it has an OPD valve.)
Record the some of the info on the collar, and put a new date on it.
Then it is good for five more years.

$10 or $15 is over charging. Very few places exchange 30# Cylinders.
New at Sam's club, Costco, Tractor Supply ect. seems better. 12 more years.


I would have no problem with 10-15 bucks for that sticker, but that isn't what I was quoted. It IS $41 BUCKS at the only two local places that will recert. A local boat an RV store will refill it, no questions but it wont update the cert which is 2 years out of date. No one locally will exchange a 30# tank


Quote:

Originally Posted by grindstone01 (Post 5074176)
New tanks are shipped from the factory with a vacuum pressure in them and should not need to be purged. You are paying for something not needed.
There should never be any oil in a propane tank. My guess is someone squirted oil into the valve assy.

Flame King is a Chinese supplier and is hit and miss, mostly miss. Worthington and Manchester are fine but also 2X as expensive to buy new. Been there once with a 20# tabk, cost $10 at the time for purging

rlott2k 12-14-2019 09:35 AM

Propane oil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by grindstone01 (Post 5071302)
You can re-certify the tank and then they can be refilled, cost is around $10. Besides, the OP has a full tank and is trying to decide what to do with the gas.



Nowhere near $10 in Canada!
Much cheaper to go to the local hardware and swap for a filled tank. $14 here in Galveston. Let the distributor deal with the old tank, lpg, and oil.
Btw tanks are always only filled to 80%.

Ray,IN 12-14-2019 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSOUZA (Post 5073570)
It is possible the material (hose) was misrepresented to WBs purchasing department but the responsibility remains with WB.


Certainly WB does not spend much time on proof of fitness, or materials science.

Most all of us have reasons to hold a poor opinion of WBs technical abilities. The propane system of the Reyo and derivitive models had several other bone headed mistakes that rendered cold weather service a "iffy" proposition.

The recalled hoses were rated a 300 lbs and the operating pressure was vicinity 125 lbs.


I don't have much respect for their ability to think out a design and bring it to market.


Phil

Some years ago(15?) a recall was issued on the hose assy-pigtail that runs from cylinder to regulator, they were made in China and cracked severely-some leaked. Mine was so hard they would not bend without cracking at time of recall.

grindstone01 12-14-2019 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlott2k (Post 5074254)
Nowhere near $10 in Canada!
Much cheaper to go to the local hardware and swap for a filled tank. $14 here in Galveston. Let the distributor deal with the old tank, lpg, and oil.
Btw tanks are always only filled to 80%.


Come on down to Texas, the propane distributor I used to work only charges $10/tank. I keep spare stickers in my RV and don't charge for neighbors! Inspection is pretty easy, you visually check for any pitted rust, confirm it has a OPD valve, and soapy water test the valve for leaks, then sign and put on a inspection sticker. The test really should be free.
A 20lb tank will hold 20lbs of propane when 80% full, that's how it is sold. Some retailers that sell out of cages will only put 15lb in a 20lb bottle and sell it as full.
If you were close by, I would gladly pick and use the OP's oil contaminated propane gas/tank. Customers used to drop of old full gas tanks often, guess what I used to use on my home grill for gas?? (old gas in old tanks)

TwoGrizz 12-15-2019 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grindstone01 (Post 5074802)
Come on down to Texas, the propane distributor I used to work only charges $10/tank. I keep spare stickers in my RV and don't charge for neighbors! Inspection is pretty easy, you visually check for any pitted rust, confirm it has a OPD valve, and soapy water test the valve for leaks, then sign and put on a inspection sticker. The test really should be free.
A 20lb tank will hold 20lbs of propane when 80% full, that's how it is sold. Some retailers that sell out of cages will only put 15lb in a 20lb bottle and sell it as full.
If you were close by, I would gladly pick and use the OP's oil contaminated propane gas/tank. Customers used to drop of old full gas tanks often, guess what I used to use on my home grill for gas?? (old gas in old tanks)

You are right about all, except, retailers that exchange cylinders print on the label "net weight 15 lbs." you are paying for the convenience of not stopping the party Saturday night for lack of gas.

twinboat 12-15-2019 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoGrizz (Post 5074921)
You are right about all, except, retailers that exchange cylinders print on the label "net weight 15 lbs." you are paying for the convenience of not stopping the party Saturday night for lack of gas.

They originally started with 17 lb of propane in the 20 lb tanks, as a safety concern while transporting them.

At the time they dropped to 15 lbs, their reason was a marketing decision to stay competitive.

Now that the prices have dropped again they are just making more money.

KanzKran 12-15-2019 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twinboat (Post 5075006)
They originally started with 17 lb of propane in the 20 lb tanks, as a safety concern while transporting them.

At the time they dropped to 15 lbs, their reason was a marketing decision to stay competitive.

Now that the prices have dropped again they are just making more money.

On Lowesí web site, thereís a response to someone asking if they can have the cylinder refilled (elsewhere) to 20 lb.

ďWe at Blue Rhino only fill our tanks to 15 lbs. However in 2002 we were regulated by the NFPA to have over fill safety valves on all tanks filled which prevents any tank to be filled more than 17 to 17.5 lbs to ensure the valve properly works. Although the tank is referred to as a "20lb cylinder", the capacity is no longer 20 lbs.Ē

Iím not a member of the NFPA so I donít have access to the relevant code, which I think is NFPA 58 Liquified Petroleum Gas Code. But this is the first Iíve heard of a rule/code change regarding DOT cylinder capacity.

15 lb is only 60% of the capacity of a 20 lb cylinder, which is actually 25 lb if filled to the top. Sounds fishy to me, but I have nothing to back that up, so itís possible theyíre telling the truth.

TwoGrizz 12-16-2019 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KanzKran (Post 5075119)
On Lowesí web site, thereís a response to someone asking if they can have the cylinder refilled (elsewhere) to 20 lb.

ďWe at Blue Rhino only fill our tanks to 15 lbs. However in 2002 we were regulated by the NFPA to have over fill safety valves on all tanks filled which prevents any tank to be filled more than 17 to 17.5 lbs to ensure the valve properly works. Although the tank is referred to as a "20lb cylinder", the capacity is no longer 20 lbs.Ē

Iím not a member of the NFPA so I donít have access to the relevant code, which I think is NFPA 58 Liquified Petroleum Gas Code. But this is the first Iíve heard of a rule/code change regarding DOT cylinder capacity.

15 lb is only 60% of the capacity of a 20 lb cylinder, which is actually 25 lb if filled to the top. Sounds fishy to me, but I have nothing to back that up, so itís possible theyíre telling the truth.

Sounds fishy to me also.

I have not filled a cylinder in a few years but we used a scale.
Propane dispensed to a DOT cyl. should be sold by the pound.
Thus the weight of the cyl. plus 20, 30, 40 and so on with cyl. on scale.
Average 20# cylinder is about 18#. Set the scale 39# allowing for hose.
Once in a while the OPD would stop a little short but no more than a pound.
And sometimes it would go a little over.

KanzKran 12-16-2019 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoGrizz (Post 5076461)
Sounds fishy to me also.

I have not filled a cylinder in a few years but we used a scale.
Propane dispensed to a DOT cyl. should be sold by the pound.
Thus the weight of the cyl. plus 20, 30, 40 and so on with cyl. on scale.
Average 20# cylinder is about 18#. Set the scale 39# allowing for hose.
Once in a while the OPD would stop a little short but no more than a pound.
And sometimes it would go a little over.

That's the procedure outlined by the Propane Education & Research Council (PERC) which includes a bunch of industry members and subject matter experts. I do know that propane fill services were not permitted to fill a cylinder that didn't have an OPD as of April 2002 (they were available since 1998 I think), but that's all I could find.

Nothing about 17-17.5 lb or 15 lb, and I haven't been able to find a supplier of OPD equipped cylinder valve units that aren't set up for 20 lb in a standard 20 lb cylinder.* I'm open to enlightenment, of course, but so far I'm turning up bupkis.

*Water capacity, stamped into the ring as "WC" followed by a number around 48-49, is the full-to-the-top weight of water the cylinder can hold in pounds. Propane having SG of around 0.51 means it would hold 25 lb of propane, and 80% of that is 20 lb.

TwoGrizz 12-16-2019 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KanzKran (Post 5076556)
That's the procedure outlined by the Propane Education & Research Council (PERC) which includes a bunch of industry members and subject matter experts. I do know that propane fill services were not permitted to fill a cylinder that didn't have an OPD as of April 2002 (they were available since 1998 I think), but that's all I could find.

Nothing about 17-17.5 lb or 15 lb, and I haven't been able to find a supplier of OPD equipped cylinder valve units that aren't set up for 20 lb in a standard 20 lb cylinder.* I'm open to enlightenment, of course, but so far I'm turning up bupkis.

*Water capacity, stamped into the ring as "WC" followed by a number around 48-49, is the full-to-the-top weight of water the cylinder can hold in pounds. Propane having SG of around 0.51 means it would hold 25 lb of propane, and 80% of that is 20 lb.

I concur. And I think we have strayed way off topic. :angel:

rlott2k 12-17-2019 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grindstone01 (Post 5074802)
Come on down to Texas, the propane distributor I used to work only charges $10/tank. I keep spare stickers in my RV and don't charge for neighbors! Inspection is pretty easy, you visually check for any pitted rust, confirm it has a OPD valve, and soapy water test the valve for leaks, then sign and put on a inspection sticker. The test really should be free.
A 20lb tank will hold 20lbs of propane when 80% full, that's how it is sold. Some retailers that sell out of cages will only put 15lb in a 20lb bottle and sell it as full.
If you were close by, I would gladly pick and use the OP's oil contaminated propane gas/tank. Customers used to drop of old full gas tanks often, guess what I used to use on my home grill for gas?? (old gas in old tanks)



So your recertification ( older than 10 years) is a decal? Not a new date stamped in the handle?

richard5933 12-17-2019 08:35 PM

1 Attachment(s)
The re certification sticker on my tank is placed inside the collar/handle. You can see it on the upper tank in this photo. It contains much more information than just a date, such as the name and credentials of the place that did the recert.

TwoGrizz 12-18-2019 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlott2k (Post 5078285)
So your recertification ( older than 10 years) is a decal? Not a new date stamped in the handle?

It's 12 years to requalify!
That is up to the retailer, exchange retailer usually stamps, dealers use stickers, both are only good for five years.

Ray,IN 12-18-2019 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoGrizz (Post 5079387)
It's 12 years to requalify!
That is up to the retailer, exchange retailer usually stamps, dealers use stickers, both are only good for five years.

https://www.lpgasmagazine.com/dot-cy...ane-marketers/

TwoGrizz 12-18-2019 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richard5933 (Post 5078363)
The re certification sticker on my tank is placed inside the collar/handle. You can see it on the upper tank in this photo. It contains much more information than just a date, such as the name and credentials of the place that did the recert.

Ours is a similar sticker, it incudes month and year "punch outs" and a code for the company and branch that recorded the info from the collar of your cylinder.
We are one of the largest family owned propane companies in the US.

It is stamped into the collar on most DOT cylinders that requalifying within 12 years is the law and that VISUAL inspection is the biggest part of requalifying. Does it look OK?


Steve

TwoGrizz 12-18-2019 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray,IN (Post 5079403)

Look at the collar of your cylinder if it says 10yrs or 12yrs. go with that.

Mine say 12yrs.

KanzKran 12-19-2019 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray,IN (Post 5079403)

And here's the notice from the DOT putting the 10-year requalification on hold until the rule change is more thoroughly vetted. There's some question on just exactly how the 12-year requalification rule got changed to 10 years, or more specifically, what the justification was, if any.

I don't know what, if anything, has happened since. I suspect it will revert to 12 years, permanently, but that's just a suspicion based on decades of seeing what goes on behind the curtain on other committees and code making panels and such.

https://www.npga.org/wp-content/uploa...cation-....pdf

rlott2k 12-19-2019 08:35 AM

Ok so a quite a bit different than in Canada.
https://propane.ca/wp-content/upload...ugust-2016.pdf
https://propane.ca/frequently-asked-questions/

Bytesponge 12-19-2019 03:55 PM

I agree 100%. I have had that experience of using an additional outside 40 lb bottle with a bad fill and cost me two regulators. Fluid can't be compressed by the regulator and messes up the diaphragm. I hope the OP listens to suggestions given. REPLACE THE BOTTLE.

Bytesponge

Treker Vic 12-19-2019 05:06 PM

Propane has no odor. For safety sake and odorant is added. That is the oily substance. Using the propane in some thing that is not critical should not be a problem. Keep the tank up right so the oil settles to the bottom.

vanman250 12-19-2019 05:24 PM

As said a few time here already the oil is from the hose. Reply the hose and the oil will go away. The oil isnít in the tank.

mgnorris 12-19-2019 06:31 PM

The oil is called Ethylmercaptan, it is what gives propane itís odor. If it was in the hose there was probably a very small leak from the tank valve, into the hose, which accumulated the oil over a long period of time. Empty the tank by using the gas in a grille. Then take it to your local l.p. dealer or exchange it. If it has the new style valve it can be recertified, if it has the old valve itís junk.

mgnorris 12-19-2019 06:37 PM

A hose that is rated for propane gas will not break down and leave oil behind.
Not an argument, a fact. Been in and around the L.P. Industry for over 50 years. Never, ever, have I seen a hose break down and form oil. They will dry out and crack from old age and UV.

AZ69 12-19-2019 06:40 PM

Trecker Vic is the best answer I have seen. Having grown up in the propane business in the 50s and 60s, my dad owned a propane distributorship. We used to fill the 5 gal tanks (and other sizes) by using the 10 percent valve to know when it was full. If a tank was empty it took 5 gallons to fill when the liquid came out the outage valve (10% valve).

The oil built up over time from the odorizing agent put into the propane to know if you had a leak.

If we had to change out a valve on a tank that had been in use for a long time we would turn the tank upside and drain some of that oil, it was really nasty and the oil on the ground would draw the horseflies like a magnet, needless to say you did this a long way from the buildings.

TwoGrizz 12-19-2019 09:41 PM

Very interesting...:cool: :whistling: :popcorn:

StorminNorma 12-20-2019 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shootist (Post 5068227)
In a stationary tank they used to put the stinky smell in the tank so you instantly knew you had a leak. It was oil based and incredibly vile. The scent in natural gas is the same type of thing, I think it is so potent you could convulse if it got on you. Did it really smell?

I drove transport loads out of a pipeline terminal for years. We had to load a syrupy liquid called mercaptan into the flow when filling the transport. I had an extra capacity 10,000 gallon unit and it took 10cc to odorize that entire load. Smelly, yup it was horrid. When loading one night the mercaptan was not loading. One of the other drivers told me the barrel was probably empty but don't worry about it as there was enough laying in the bottom of the tank to odorize several loads. I told one of the maintenance guys who came in for coffee and he went to check. Came back with another mechanic and they began examining the controls for the injector. Barrel had been changed the previous afternoon and was empty again, so somebody apparently did not close the valve and the flow sucked a whole drum into the load. :facepalm:

It took about ten days, but we ended up with an automatic unit, no more relying on the driver.:D

TravelTrak 12-20-2019 09:44 AM

Waxy stuff in propane
 
All propane has this waxy oil in it. Normally it stays with the propane as it comes out of the tank however, under the right conditions, it will precipitate out and clog things up over time. On my boat, it was a regular occurrence and required me to blow the lines clear. I suggest the you turn the tank upside down and blow all the propane and oil out of the tank. You should be good to fill up and carry on!

PSOUZA 12-20-2019 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoGrizz (Post 5080508)
Very interesting...:cool: :whistling: :popcorn:

Yup...Stamping out stupid has only one lasting effect. Makes your feet hurt. :banghead:

LifeSalt 12-20-2019 11:01 AM

I've heard of oil in propane too, which was a surprise to me. Some put drip legs in b4 the regulator..... Basically, it's just a T with a cap at the bottom of a short pipe to drain the oil...


Oil contamination is a fact of life and not everyone is bothered by it though most have some at any given time.

Some very small amounts of oil are present from the refinery, but most contamination is picked up in trans-shipping via pipeline and other multi-product shipping methods.

You can not separate the oil from the propane. The regulator will do that for you. Then the oils can be separated from the gas via a drip leg and held until manually drained during maintenance.

PSOUZA 12-20-2019 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeSalt (Post 5081002)
I've heard of oil in propane too, which was a surprise to me. Some put drip legs in b4 the regulator..... Basically, it's just a T with a cap at the bottom of a short pipe to drain the oil...


Oil contamination is a fact of life and not everyone is bothered by it though most have some at any given time.

Some very small amounts of oil are present from the refinery, but most contamination is picked up in trans-shipping via pipeline and other multi-product shipping methods.

You can not separate the oil from the propane. The regulator will do that for you. Then the oils can be separated from the gas via a drip leg and held until manually drained during maintenance.




Well said....my feet feel better already. :thumb:


Phil

PSOUZA 12-20-2019 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vanman250 (Post 5080229)
As said a few time here already the oil is from the hose. Reply the hose and the oil will go away. The oil isnít in the tank.


And those of us that have no rubber hose and are bothered with oil..are what?? :nonono:

vanman250 12-20-2019 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSOUZA (Post 5081074)
And those of us that have no rubber hose and are bothered with oil..are what?? :nonono:

I think in his case it it is due to the old hoses. If he removes the hoses and gets oil from the tank thatís a different story but considering everything I still think what he is experiencing is from the hoses. New hoses are manufactured differently and you wonít experience the oil problem created from the old style hoses.

PSOUZA 12-20-2019 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vanman250 (Post 5081239)
I think in his case it it is due to the old hoses. If he removes the hoses and gets oil from the tank that’s a different story but considering everything I still think what he is experiencing is from the hoses. New hoses are manufactured differently and you won’t experience the oil problem created from the old style hoses.


Remember you said the oil is not in the tank.

Let's try thinking along slightly different lines here.


It is not logical to assign different causes to people with different equipment. One size must fit all, here, or intelligent discussion can't take place.


How much oil are we talking about? Over what period of time are we collecting this oil?

What would the cubic volume of the total oil collected be? I have collected two ounces several times in a row and have no hoses.

Looking at the volume of the hose material, is it logical to think the total volume of collected oil could fit in side the hose material?

Can anyone explain why the amount of oil collected does not diminish with time?

Remember this hose controversy did not begin with this individual, but has existed for many years, affecting many other people.

We should not get too involved in assigning blame as to where the oil comes from.

It appears a lost cause to educate people on how the oil gets to our tank. It does not matter. We will not avoid it. We can't. We should be concerned with how to manage it.


It is far easier to show the method of trapping the oil and draining it, to minimize its effects. That, I think, they can grasp.




Phil

PSOUZA 12-20-2019 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StorminNorma (Post 5080699)
We had to load a syrupy liquid called mercaptan into the flow when filling the transport. :D




The mercaptan is actually a light liquid,with a density of .8, thinner than water. It becomes a gas at about 95* F so it is mixed in a carrier liquid to bind the mercaptan and make it more easily handled. This carrier is readily dissolved in the propane and becomes part of the heavy ends distillate.


Phil

remusr 12-20-2019 06:44 PM

Normal to find some oil in a propane tank and is not a problem with refrig or furnace orifices. It can foul the tiny orifices and regulators used in our small bbq's though.

A small amount of low viscosity oil is injected in the propane after processing to lube valves & orings etc that would otherwise be dessicated, since Propane is dried out to at least -40F/C at bubblepoint pressure so it can be used in the winter and also not rust the carbon steel containers it is stored in, like your bottle. If you blow out the tank the oil will be blown out too.


Mercaptan is a sulfurous stench used to...stench the otherwise odourless propane and natural gas fuels to make leaks obvious. A safety measure.

mgnorris 12-21-2019 06:32 AM

I keep seeing posts on here to ďblow the propane out of the tankĒ. I donít think you people realize the extreme danger in doing that. Liquified petroleum gas, LP. For short, expands by 240 times its compressed volume when released into an atmospheric pressure area. One gallon will create a cloud with enough explosive force to level a house. I have, while working in this industry, witnessed a very large explosion caused by negligence. Itís not something that anyone would ever want to see firsthand. NEVER release the contents of an l tank into the atmosphere unless you are qualified to do so. And never release the tank inverted. Liquid propane boils at -34 f. Itís heavier than air, so it will lie on the ground, seep into cracks, and be there for longer than you realize.

lwmcguire 12-21-2019 07:19 AM

This has been interesting to follow

Since most of the applications discussed use vapor taken off the tanks instead of liquid from a low point or tube it is quite notable the amount of oil mentioned

We ran propane trucks and tractors back when we paid 5 cents per gallon for semi load deliveries for many years

Liquid with heated vaporization on vehicles

All buildings and cooking was in LP as well

Never an oil problem ever

Motors did have propane filters and of course just like natural gas installation all drip legs were in place

PSOUZA 12-21-2019 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lwmcguire (Post 5081796)
This has been interesting to follow

Since most of the applications discussed use vapor taken off the tanks instead of liquid from a low point or tube it is quite notable the amount of oil mentioned

We ran propane trucks and tractors back when we paid 5 cents per gallon for semi load deliveries for many years

Liquid with heated vaporization on vehicles

All buildings and cooking was in LP as well

Never an oil problem ever

Motors did have propane filters and of course just like natural gas installation all drip legs were in place




These discussions tend to amplify the oil and contamination problems in propane out of proportion to what is actually occurring because most of those concerned have not even the minimal preventive measures in place.


A drip leg, properly positioned and maintained, would eliminate most all the problems.

Lots of distractions and inaccurate speculation on things that are not remotely understood by those participating in the discussions, on a problem that can not be removed from the system, but can be managed by proper means.

More emphasis on the management methods should be introduced to the discussions, and less fantasy.





Phil

PSOUZA 12-21-2019 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lwmcguire (Post 5081796)
This has been interesting to follow

Since most of the applications discussed use vapor taken off the tanks instead of liquid from a low point or tube it is quite notable the amount of oil mentioned

Liquid with heated vaporization on vehicles

All buildings and cooking was in LP as well

Never an oil problem ever

Motors did have propane filters and of course just like natural gas installation all drip legs were in place




The oil problems are variable, by region, and possibly by season. Caused largely by the shipping methods, after refining.


Reliable observations on actual amounts of oil recovered are scarce.


Drip legs don't seem to be common on RV's.
https://www.irv2.com/forums/attachmen...1&d=1576901943

Combination drip leg and external LP source for grill or whatever.

Externally heated propane generators, such as fork lifts, are a special case, and very sensitive to oils that tend to turn to sludge. Can't use commercial grade propane there.


Commercial grade propane is what we burn in the RV's, so it is not the cleanest available.




Phil

mgnorris 12-21-2019 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSOUZA (Post 5082091)
The oil problems are variable, by region, and possibly by season. Caused largely by the shipping methods, after refining.


Reliable observations on actual amounts of oil recovered are scarce.


Drip legs don't seem to be common on RV's.


Externally heated propane generators, such as fork lifts, are a special case, and very sensitive to oils that tend to turn to sludge. Can't use commercial grade propane there.


Commercial grade propane is what we burn in the RV's, so it is not the cleanest available.




Phil

Spec HD5 propane. Itís the only LP that is used in northern tier states. You may see some other content in southern regions, more butane content. I have never heard of commercial grade, or any other grade of LP. It all comes through a pipeline to a terminal, then into either a truck tanker or rail tanker, to a dealer who delivers it to the end user, be it residential, commercial, or retail outlets in small prefilled tanks. Same gas in all applications. Been that way for at least 60 years with little change other than driver license requirements.

PSOUZA 12-21-2019 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgnorris (Post 5082108)
Spec HD5 propane. It’s the only LP that is used in northern tier states. You may see some other content in southern regions, more butane content. I have never heard of commercial grade, or any other grade of LP. It all comes through a pipeline to a terminal, then into either a truck tanker or rail tanker, to a dealer who delivers it to the end user, be it residential, commercial, or retail outlets in small prefilled tanks. Same gas in all applications. Been that way for at least 60 years with little change other than driver license requirements.




Be nice if that were so.


https://www.propane101.com/propanegradesandquality.htm

There are other, lesser known flavors also such as medical and food grade, but not relevant here as they are special order.


Phil

grindstone01 12-21-2019 12:12 PM

It still does not make sense that oil is coming out of a propane tank. As many other post stated the oil would not turn into vapor at -34F to be able to get out through the valves.
If there were oil in a propane tank, the only way to get it out would be to empty the tank first then turn it upside down and open/remove the valve.
Pictured below is a full 20lb tank and the liquid propane should not make contact with the valve.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...Yni4B5rxMTazzd

AnotherMike 12-21-2019 12:56 PM

Quote trimmed for brevity...

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgnorris (Post 5081768)
Liquid propane boils at -34 f. It’s heavier than air, so it will lie on the ground, seep into cracks, and be there for longer than you realize.

I remember my dad telling a story about a car show he was taking photos of... he closed his photo studio in 1981, so this incident was probably in the mid 1970s... it was a parked-on-the-street auto show on a windless day, and one of the cars was propane-fueled and apparently had a slight leak in the propane system... my memory of him telling the story says Stanley Steamer... and the driver forgot to shut off the propane tank after parking the car...

The propane seeped along the ground, into the gutter, down the slope of the street, found a storm drain grate, and descended into the sewer system. Somehow it was ignited and the resulting explosion blew a half-dozen manhole covers into the air.

One manhole cover was slammed into the bottom of a pickup truck hard enough to tip the truck onto it's side.

There's a LOT of energy in a half-dozen gallons of LPG...

Mike

PSOUZA 12-21-2019 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grindstone01 (Post 5082138)
It still does not make sense that oil is coming out of a propane tank. As many other post stated the oil would not turn into vapor at -34F to be able to get out through the valves.
If there were oil in a propane tank, the only way to get it out would be to empty the tank first then turn it upside down and open/remove the valve.
Pictured below is a full 20lb tank and the liquid propane should not make contact with the valve.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...Yni4B5rxMTazzd



What you have read and heard is wrong. The oil, does indeed, become vapor if it is miscible.


Propane physics can be complicated, but here we go.


Propane is a solvent. It dissolves most oils . The oil molecules bind to the propane molecules in the empty spaces. The propane will dissolve oil until it is saturated. That is a lot of oil. Under normal conditions, there will not be any oil left in the bottom of the tank. More on those conditions later. Where the propane vapor goes, so goes the oil.


Think of gasoline and oil in a premix 2 stroke engine. How would you separate the oil from the gas?? You would evaporate the gasoline and the oil would remain. Or you could run the two stroker, where the gas would be vaporized by the carburetor and the oils would fall out of the vapor and condense in the crank case. Some would be burned immediately and the rest would be eventually be swept up and out by the turbulence and leave thru the exhaust. Some similarities to our propane model.


The propane will hold the oil in suspension indefinitely, or until it undergoes a state change. Until it evaporates into a gas. At that point, in the regulator, the oil will drop out of suspension and coat the surfaces of the regulator and hoses, coalesce and become a liquid.


The special conditions where oil may remain in the tank are:


1. The oil is not miscible (Can't be dissolved in propane). It got there from a severely contaminated source. You're screwed and must clean out the tank. The good thing is, that oil can't leave the tank and cause trouble. It can only reduce the amount of propane the tank can contain.



2. The oil dropped out of suspension because the propane was near saturation and the temperature dropped. Cold propane holds less oil than hot propane. The good news is that any miscible oil remaining in the tank, will be dissolved back into the propane when the temperature rises or when a fresh, clean load of propane is pumped into your tank.


Phil

grindstone01 12-21-2019 01:25 PM

Hi Phil - Thanks for the reply. Two issues I see is that gasoline in a engine situation does not go to a true gas state but becomes small droplets through the carb or injector system. Therefor the mixed oil also remains in a liquid droplet form.
The second issue is when propane liquid turns into a true gas, it should (engineer here, not a chemist) drop out the oil much like a osmosis system would to purify water. Only the propane gas would exit the tank valve drawn off from the top 20% of the tank. In other words, the propane liquid would never enter the regulator, only the propane gas at high pressure from the tank which is then reduced to a lower pressure in through the regulator.

PSOUZA 12-21-2019 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grindstone01 (Post 5082242)
Hi Phil - Thanks for the reply. Two issues I see is that gasoline in a engine situation does not go to a true gas state but becomes small droplets through the carb or injector system. Therefor the mixed oil also remains in a liquid droplet form.
The second issue is when propane liquid turns into a true gas, it should (engineer here, not a chemist) drop out the oil much like a osmosis system would to purify water. Only the propane gas would exit the tank valve drawn off from the top 20% of the tank. In other words, the propane liquid would never enter the regulator, only the propane gas at high pressure from the tank which is then reduced to a lower pressure in through the regulator.


Glad you brought this up as it reflects a bit on the previous post.


Propane is a bit of a rogue when it comes to the states of matter. We have all been conditioned to think of gas and vapor as the same state. In propane, and butane, this does not work. I can't cite all of it off the top of my head, but it has to do with state and equilibrium. Propane liquid and vapor can both exist at the same temperature and pressure at the same time.


Propane vapor is really both liquid and gas where the liquid has yet to fully change state.



The result is that the vapor contains the same miscible materials as the liquid, and in the same proportions.


Look at it another way. If the propane were to change state to a gas while still in the tank, the miscible materials would never leave it.


Must not confuse the visible white cloud of released propane to the air with the true vapor (in the tank). The true vapor is invisible.


This is hard information to get in a lay-man digestible form. Three years ago Google threatened me with terms of use because of the intensity of my searches :eek:


The conflict in the two stroke engine is a result of our conditioning in the sloppy use of the gas/vapor thing.

Another way to look at it. This is a still (short cracking tower) Where the progressively lighter fractions are drawn off.



Propane recovery of crude products in the ground where propane injected and pumped back to the surface where the propane is removed and the crude allowed to fall out.


OR in the food industry where butane and propane are used to extract oils that contain flavor compounds.


OR the illegal drug hash oil labs that use similar processes.


I think we may want to clarify our positions a bit more, but I have just been called away for bit. and the edit window is closing.


Phil

PSOUZA 12-21-2019 03:28 PM

Apologize if this becomes repetitious...too many balls in play...





Quote:

Originally Posted by grindstone01 (Post 5082242)
Hi Phil gasoline in a engine situation does not go to a true gas state but becomes small droplets through the carb or injector system. Therefor the mixed oil also remains in a liquid droplet form.


The second issue is when propane liquid turns into a true gas, it should (engineer here, not a chemist) drop out the oil much like a osmosis system would to purify water. Only the propane gas would exit the tank valve drawn off from the top 20% of the tank. In other words, the propane liquid would never enter the regulator, only the propane gas at high pressure from the tank which is then reduced to a lower pressure in through the regulator.




1. The gasoline is atomized by the carburetor into small liquid droplets, which in this case contain oil dissolved in the gasoline. The heat in the air helps to vaporize the fuel droplets, which turn into vapor. Without the liquid gasoline to carry it, the oil drops out. Remember liquid gasoline does not burn directly, it must be vaporized. The conventions we must observe do not let us use the term gas for gasoline that has vaporized, but in this case it is a distinction without a difference.



2. Indeed, the liquid propane should never touch the regulator (in an ideal world).
The propane vapor contains all the miscible materials, in the original proportions, as the liquid. It has not changed state yet, nor has the pressure dropped. Remember propane exists in stable form (equilibrium) in both vapor form and liquid form. Only when the pressure drops to near atmospheric, does the state change to gas. Then the oil drops.

This duality of simultaneous existence in two separate forms is the source of all the confusion and fantasy tales associated with the use of this fuel.



Another point to understand is the frost that forms on the regulator during hard usage and certain other conditions is not because liquid propane is entering the regulator. It is because the propane vapor from the tank is under the exact same pressure as the tank interior and has not yet began to expand to change to a gas. This expansion inside the regulator takes energy and that has to come from the outside air. The air dumps it's heat into the regulator to fuel the final expansion of the vapor into gas. The frost is the result.

busting a lot of bubbles today, :D



phil

vanman250 12-21-2019 03:55 PM

Wow this subject gets as heated as holding tank posts

PSOUZA 12-21-2019 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vanman250 (Post 5082387)
Wow this subject gets as heated as holding tank posts




Yeah, but this one smells better :flowers:


Lots of good questions that deserve the best answers I can offer.




Phil

TwoGrizz 12-21-2019 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSOUZA (Post 5082357)
Apologize if this becomes repetitious...too many balls in play...



1. The gasoline is atomized by the carburetor into small liquid droplets, which in this case contain oil dissolved in the gasoline. The heat in the air helps to vaporize the fuel droplets, which turn into vapor. Without the liquid gasoline to carry it, the oil drops out. Remember liquid gasoline does not burn directly, it must be vaporized. The conventions we must observe do not let us use the term gas for gasoline that has vaporized, but in this case it is a distinction without a difference.



2. Indeed, the liquid propane should never touch the regulator (in an ideal world).
The propane vapor contains all the miscible materials, in the original proportions, as the liquid. It has not changed state yet, nor has the pressure dropped. Remember propane exists in stable form (equilibrium) in both vapor form and liquid form. Only when the pressure drops to near atmospheric, does the state change to gas. Then the oil drops.

This duality of simultaneous existence in two separate forms is the source of all the confusion and fantasy tales associated with the use of this fuel.



Another point to understand is the frost that forms on the regulator during hard usage and certain other conditions is not because liquid propane is entering the regulator. It is because the propane vapor from the tank is under the exact same pressure as the tank interior and has not yet began to expand to change to a gas. This expansion inside the regulator takes energy and that has to come from the outside air. The air dumps it's heat into the regulator to fuel the final expansion of the vapor into gas. The frost is the result.

busting a lot of bubbles today, :D

phil

Whew! :icon_peace:
:goodjob: I guess it is worth it?

PSOUZA 12-21-2019 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoGrizz (Post 5082577)
Whew! :icon_peace:
:goodjob: I guess it is worth it?




Some times, when I get intelligent questions, from some one who doesn't want to sound like a parrot with a limited reading list written by other parrots. :mad:


Oh, I've had my tail chewed off a few times, for handing out info that wasn't accurate, or even true. Don't like it much, and researched it extensively afterward. Learn a lot that way. Also learned to be pretty darn sure of what I put in print. It never goes away. I enjoy a good debate where both sides can vent. I don't always come across as warm and fuzzy, but am never angry. I respect an opinion that can be posited in a logical way. If it is a point of view that does not contradict established scientific fact, well and good. If it is based on internet wisdom that has no basis in science or logic, then all bets are off, no prisoners. I will try to explain to the point where the opponent is able to understand. If that is not possible then I make my point and walk away. :)


There are no dumb questions, if they are asked honestly.




Phil

IC2 12-22-2019 06:26 AM

This thread has got me curious now. As I stated way back, a long ago 5er was 'afflicted' by carry over oils. I haven't seen any since - but that day may come back and bite us.

Is there an acceptable, reasonably priced in-line propane filter available/ Mr Heater has one** but not sure that it's adaptable to an RV without a stack up of fittings or at least new hoses with the proper fittings. It also may not have sufficiant flow.

**https://www.amazon.com/Mr-Heater-Por.../dp/B000HE8P2O

mgnorris 12-22-2019 06:37 AM

The liquid and vapor do exist in the tank at the same time. The pressure in the tank is a direct result of the ambient air temp, and exposures to the outside tank surface to any type of radiant heat, like direct sunlight. The temp falls, pressure falls. The temp goes up, pressure rises. This is why the regulator is needed. To keep the gas at a constant pressure. This is also why a pressure relief valve is on every tank. The gas boils off from the liquid at any temp above -34*. This is why all the newer tanks have automatic fill limiters, to prevent the overfilling of the tanks. It is also why the tanks have the liquid fill vent, or 80% vent, so the tank is not overfilled. I have seen pressures range from near zero on super cold days, to near the relief valve setting of approx.250psi on very hot summer days with an overfilled tank. Also, propane, like most liquid fuels, expands in volume as it heats up. That is why all propane, gasoline and motor fuel dispensers are temperature compensated and state or federal inspected and stamped(sealed). My only concerns with any of these posts are not with the oil/odorant issues in the tanks, but with safe handling of the fuel. Propane is a safe, convenient fuel source, but can be a deadly hazard if not handled correctly. The comments about blowing off the gas with the tank inverted scare the hell out of me, and I have been arround the fuel all my life. Delivered gas with my Dad when I was 5, was my Dads hands on service tech when I was 13 when arthritis took his hands away, I was the youngest Hazmat driver in the country at age 19 when Fed rules requiring 21 went into effect, how about that, a grandfathered 19 year old. So please be safe. I’ve seen to many preventable propane accidents.

AZ69 12-22-2019 09:52 AM

WOW, what a dissertation ... Well it is obvious that a lot of the readers/members have some knowledge of propane, at least in varying degrees, it has been sometimes humorous to follow along.
I learned much in my earlier days when dad was in the business, most of which I will NOT post about, because I don't want to give anyone any dumb ideas to try out.
Thanks for the entertainment folks.
Psouza, wondering if you are connected to the folks of same name who had a propane business in central CA? My dads business was in northern CA.

PSOUZA 12-22-2019 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AZ69 (Post 5083036)
WOW, what a dissertation ...
Psouza, wondering if you are connected to the folks of same name who had a propane business in central CA? My dads business was in northern CA.


Common name in central California. Many in the dairy and trucking business. Like taking the lid off popping popcorn. We're everywhere.


Phil

PSOUZA 12-22-2019 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IC2 (Post 5082835)
This thread has got me curious now. As I stated way back, a long ago 5er was 'afflicted' by carry over oils. I haven't seen any since - but that day may come back and bite us.

Is there an acceptable, reasonably priced in-line propane filter


We can't filter the oil out of propane, only collect it after it passes through the regulator. That is what the Mr. Heater thingy does. You need a drip leg, located so that it is at the lowest point of the low pressure gas plumbing. Since there is no filter involved, flow rate is not a concern.
https://www.irv2.com/forums/attachmen...1&d=1576901943
This is one I fabricated for my first motor home. You may make yours to fit just about any available space so long as the collection portion and drain valve are at the lowest point in the low pressure system. Gravity does the work.

I chose to use an LP hose attachment to feed an BBQ grill, but could just as easily installed a petcock. I did not feel the need for a large collection reservoir, since I check and drain frequently. Your wants and needs may vary.




Phil

richard5933 12-22-2019 01:25 PM

If you look at the two horizontal tanks in the photo I posted above, you'll see that the hose on each has a downhill loop. Wouldn't this serve as a drip leg? It would take a while for any oil that falls out of the LP to cause a problem, and simply dropping the hose from each tank would drain whatever is present.

IC2 12-22-2019 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSOUZA (Post 5083275)
We can't filter the oil out of propane, only collect it after it passes through the regulator. That is what the Mr. Heater thingy does. You need a drip leg, located so that it is at the lowest point of the low pressure gas plumbing. Since there is no filter involved, flow rate is not a concern.
[
This is one I fabricated for my first motor home. You may make yours to fit just about any available space so long as the collection portion and drain valve are at the lowest point in the low pressure system. Gravity does the work.

I chose to use an LP hose attachment to feed an BBQ grill, but could just as easily installed a petcock. I did not feel the need for a large collection reservoir, since I check and drain frequently. Your wants and needs may vary.

Phil

Thanks for that clarification.

It appears that what this will do is protect those costly downstream items, fridge/stove/HW heater/furnace, instead of the $35 pressure regulators of which many 5ers have two. A step down on the curb side and an auto change over on the driver's side.

The arrow kinda confuses me, but the assembly looks like an elbow at the regulator, a tee to the RV propane line with the drip leg below to catch crud being knocked out of the stream by the 90* turn. In simplified terms, a mini knock out drum. The petcock or valve would be used for a pressure blow out of oil and debris. I probably have enough material in my piping parts that I bought-for another project that didn't happen or were extra. Not a lot of room in that regulator and gas bottle compartment to work though.

PSOUZA 12-22-2019 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richard5933 (Post 5083288)
If you look at the two horizontal tanks in the photo I posted above, you'll see that the hose on each has a downhill loop. Wouldn't this serve as a drip leg? It would take a while for any oil that falls out of the LP to cause a problem, and simply dropping the hose from each tank would drain whatever is present.


Unfortunately, from what I can see, that won't work for you. The hoses, direct from the tank, will not collect any oil. That only happens post regulation, in the low pressure line(s). From what I see, that would be the blue hose. If you have just one regulator then the blue line would have to have a drip leg attached. If more than one regulator then a drip leg for each is needed. It is not clear to me from the picture, but it looks like you may have combined the two high pressure lines at the regulator input which is good.


Looking at the regulator and blue hose, it appears you have the worst possible scenario. The oils will coalesce in the blue hose, gravity will drop the oil into the out put port of the regulator and depending on the amount and consistency of the oil and the amount of gas flow, that could move large amounts of oil into expensive places.


If what I think I see is correct, I recommend a rework of the plumbing where the regulator is placed as high in the compartment as practical above the top tank, with low pressure hose dropping straight down to the new drip leg and then looping back up into the existing plumbing. The drip leg should be at the bottom of the loop. Gravity does the work of collecting the oil and that is why the drip leg must be below the level of the regulator.

PSOUZA 12-22-2019 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IC2 (Post 5083362)
Thanks for that clarification.

The arrow kinda confuses me, but the assembly looks like an elbow at the regulator, a tee to the RV propane line with the drip leg below to catch crud being knocked out of the stream by the 90* turn. In simplified terms, a mini knock out drum.


The arrow illustrates the path of the low pressure gas into a pre-existing 90* elbow fastened to the outer compartment wall. That goes up into the coach.


No knock out occurs. The oil just drops out on any available surface, coalesces, and flows down hill. Gravity does the work and is why all collection should be done at the lowest point of the system.


Phil

PSOUZA 12-22-2019 08:40 PM

For anyone interested in a schematic drawing with some description of function....here it is.


https://www.irv2.com/attachments/phot...iplegtext1.png

Ray,IN 12-22-2019 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KanzKran (Post 5079603)
And here's the notice from the DOT putting the 10-year requalification on hold until the rule change is more thoroughly vetted. There's some question on just exactly how the 12-year requalification rule got changed to 10 years, or more specifically, what the justification was, if any.

I don't know what, if anything, has happened since. I suspect it will revert to 12 years, permanently, but that's just a suspicion based on decades of seeing what goes on behind the curtain on other committees and code making panels and such.

https://www.npga.org/wp-content/uploa...cation-....pdf

Apparently this is not cut n dried.
This quote is from https://www.tedjohnsonpropane.com/pr...s/propane-faq/



" NFPA pamphlet 58 states that all DOT cylinders need to be recertified after 12 years from the manufacturing date and depending on what certifying method is used they are recertified every 5,7,12 years thereafter. Recertification involves a periodical documented inspection and testing of the cylinder to confirm that the cylinder is still safe and legal to remain in service."

richard5933 12-23-2019 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSOUZA (Post 5083369)
...If what I think I see is correct, I recommend a rework of the plumbing where the regulator is placed as high in the compartment as practical above the top tank, with low pressure hose dropping straight down to the new drip leg and then looping back up into the existing plumbing. The drip leg should be at the bottom of the loop. Gravity does the work of collecting the oil and that is why the drip leg must be below the level of the regulator.

Could I accomplish anything by turning the elbow on the output of the regulator to point downward, and then adding a loop of hose between the elbow and the existing copper pipe (shown covered in blue wrap)? That would create a drip loop immediately past the regulator.


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