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-   -   Level before slide or slide before level? (https://www.irv2.com/forums/f103/level-before-slide-or-slide-before-level-536459.html)

JMH 05-11-2021 06:34 PM

Mind the gap.

All you need to know.

zeno67 05-11-2021 09:05 PM

Well I guess plenty has been said in answer to this question. I think many have made a good point that the process can and will differ from coach to coach based on many factors. Since the people that engineered it and built it say slides out first then level, well I understand what you are saying about logically it seems it would be better to level first, however, I would not question the experts (Newmar) and I would follow their instructions. I'm sure they have good reason to recommend doing it this way.

Dav L 05-11-2021 09:29 PM

One of the most posted topics I can think of.
New to the forum...welcome.
But please use search before posting a topic.

rickemo 05-12-2021 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mac99 (Post 5747620)
Ditto on what Rick said. After slides are out
you can/may adjust again for any variations.
Might want to "zero" the auto leveler, often
they are off. I zeroed mine and then I always
leveled manually. Front to back, then side to
side. Worked great for the 11 years I had it.

Like Mac99 I manual level. The first couple times I used automatic, but I found the automatic leveling raised the coach higher than necessary. A few times the front wheels were off the ground and the site was basically flat. Iím not comfortable with the wheels off the ground. I also use blocks under the leveling pads to only extend the levelers the minimum length necessary.

DKRITTER 05-12-2021 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickemo (Post 5747599)
We level first then put out the slides.

Sorry, but I have to point out the original poster has a Newmar 2020 Dutch Star 4081 which is a completely different MH from what you have.

I literally have no idea or understanding how FR is suggesting you level/deploy slides. I do however know and understand how Newmar recommends it be done on their MH's with the FWS.

Be aware different companies have different recommendations on how their particular RV's operate.

RichardE 05-12-2021 06:09 AM

A little more explanation may help you figure out what you want to do. My explanation only applies to coaches with air suspension. If you have leaf spring suspension, this does not apply to your rig.

The first idea that people have a hard time accepting, is that a motorhome home frame flexes and twists, A LOT.

When sitting in travel mode, allowing the height control valves to adjust the frame to the axle distances, the frame is in it’s least stressed condition. That is because the rear HCVs control the side to side attitude, and the front HCV allows the front wheels to “float” allowing them to follow the rear. Even if the coach is sitting on angled ground, or uneven ground, the coach is in it’s least twisted state when in travel mode.

When you level the coach, regardless of whether the coach uses air bag leveling or hydraulic jack leveling, the leveling computer forces the coach floor to level. In theory, pressures equalization and adjustment algorithms should account for uneven terrain and not induce flex in the coach. That is in theory. In practice, some situations can induce a lot of twist in the coach. Read enough threads and you will hear of folks popping out their windshield when leveling on uneven ground.

Having said that, would you rather extend your rooms when the coach is least twisted or more twisted? The reason Newmar says look at the gaps, is that if the gap is uneven then the frame is in a twisted state.

And lower the coach back into travel mode before retracting the rooms also.

I am not getting into an argument with the owner’s manual. Many of them say to do the opposite of what I recommend. My goal is to help someone understand mechanically what is going on when making the decision on what is the best approach.

Dav L 05-12-2021 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichardE (Post 5748306)
A little more explanation may help you figure out what you want to do. My explanation only applies to coaches with air suspension. If you have leaf spring suspension, this does not apply to your rig.

The first idea that people have a hard time accepting, is that a motorhome home frame flexes and twists, A LOT.

When sitting in travel mode, allowing the height control valves to adjust the frame to the axle distances, the frame is in it’s least stressed condition. That is because the rear HCVs control the side to side attitude, and the front HCV allows the front wheels to “float” allowing them to follow the rear. Even if the coach is sitting on angled ground, or uneven ground, the coach is in it’s least twisted state when in travel mode.

When you level the coach, regardless of whether the coach uses air bag leveling or hydraulic jack leveling, the leveling computer forces the coach floor to level. In theory, pressures equalization and adjustment algorithms should account for uneven terrain and not induce flex in the coach. That is in theory. In practice, some situations can induce a lot of twist in the coach. Read enough threads and you will hear of folks popping out their windshield when leveling on uneven ground.

Having said that, would you rather extend your rooms when the coach is least twisted or more twisted? The reason Newmar says look at the gaps, is that if the gap is uneven then the frame is in a twisted state.

And lower the coach back into travel mode before retracting the rooms also.

I am not getting into an argument with the owner’s manual. Many of them say to do the opposite of what I recommend. My goal is to help someone understand mechanically what is going on when making the decision on what is the best approach.

Agreed Richard.
The root cause I have found is the leveling systems are generally inadaquete to address chassis twist when in auto level mode (what gets used by most, most of the time). And the end user doesn't have the "skill" to untwist the chassis because there typically doesn't exist a Front AND Rear level sensor so the two can be "twisted".

The slides don't "care" if on tires, air bags, leaf springs or airbags. They care that the opening is square and reasonably level.
Square can be identified by checking the gaps of the opening. But that requires someone to go outside and check. And if the slide doesn't fit flush with the opening when properly closed (by design), then it can be hard to determine if the gaps are indeed equal (chassis isn't twisted) if the gaps can't be seen when closed. My Newmar slides are flush and you can see the gap when closed. My Bounder was not flush, and you can't see the gaps.

Full Wall Slides are larger so any twist in the chassis magnifies the problem dimensionally and the FWS chassis are generally not as stiff so it's easier to twist. Later year chassis (like Newmar's "Star Chassis") was designed a bit stiffer.

Because of the above, the owner's manuals try to make it as simple as possible (because most owners are not very proficient at understanding the issue and the systems) for MOST situations.

Some folks say "because they build the rig on a level surface, that's why it needs to be level...well actually, it just needs to be level and square. And they happen to build them that way too.

So, bottom line: No matter your RV, ensure the chassis is reasonably level AND not twisted and the slides will work just fine - in or out.

CWSWine 05-12-2021 08:47 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Here is what Newmar sent me...

krpowers54 05-12-2021 09:01 AM

Thank you SO MUCH!!!
 
I'm also relatively new to forums. I did search this subject prior to adding a new thread but apparently didn't use the proper terminology.

Thanks to everyone for the input and explanations. Gaps 1st, Slide 2nd, Level 3rd. Now - I only have one more question. As recommended by Newmar and many of you, I should check the gaps. What are we supposed to do if the gaps are not even? Have any of you experienced this? If so - what did you do?

Thanks again, folks.

krpowers54 05-12-2021 09:11 AM

CWSWine -

I see that you addressed this while I was appending my message. As mentioned, I just purchased the Dutch Star less than a month ago. It came with very few manuals, so we're accumulating those now. The one I did receive said to check gaps, extend slides and level but didn't note what-to-dos if gaps are not parallel.

I've never been much of a believer in forums - UNTIL NOW!!!

Thank you again.

John_Penzi 05-12-2021 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CWSWine (Post 5748538)
Here is what Newmar sent me...


So are we to interpret that Newmar suggests this updated/modified order of operations for all coaches, regardless of model year? Seems so.....

CWSWine 05-12-2021 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John_Penzi (Post 5748591)
So are we to interpret that Newmar suggests this updated/modified order of operations for all coaches, regardless of model year? Seems so.....

I ask about 2017 Ventana so I don't know what years it applies to other than 2017. I called because reading the manual I thought slides out jacks down was error but was quickly informed that the manual was correct.

CWSWine 05-12-2021 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krpowers54 (Post 5748562)
I'm also relatively new to forums. I did search this subject prior to adding a new thread but apparently didn't use the proper terminology.

Thanks to everyone for the input and explanations. Gaps 1st, Slide 2nd, Level 3rd. Now - I only have one more question. As recommended by Newmar and many of you, I should check the gaps. What are we supposed to do if the gaps are not even? Have any of you experienced this? If so - what did you do?

Thanks again, folks.


The post I posted above address if the gaps are not even.

ArtJoyce 05-12-2021 10:31 AM

If the site looks fairly lever. We do it either way. But if the site is noticebly unlevel. We level first level.

I have seen instructions both ways. We have been in sites that side to side have had 8+ inchs and front to rear well over 12 inchs. Now there is no need for the slid motor and gears to be working up or down hills. Or for the slid to want want to travel to the front or rear when sliding out.


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