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frankjc1 09-12-2021 04:31 PM

KZ Connect Safety Recall
 
I own a 2021 KZ C272FK and just received a Safety Recall notice stating that due to an engineering error the tongue weight is to lite. This explains why I ended up sliding sideways down the highway. I've owned this camper a few short months it has a great floor plan but you're risking your life if you tow it. KZ says they need to remove the axles and relocate them reward about 7.5" all I need to do is tow it to an authorized dealer for the repair. I asked if they would tow it and how about a fair exchange? Nope, "all you want is a new camper." Ahh yeah cause that's what I paid for! You tow it and we'll fix it with our new engineering design that's it.

What would you do?

Intothewild 09-12-2021 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankjc1 (Post 5911252)
I own a 2021 KZ C272FK and just received a Safety Recall notice stating that due to an engineering error the tongue weight is to lite. This explains why I ended up sliding sideways down the highway. I've owned this camper a few short months it has a great floor plan but you're risking your life if you tow it. KZ says they need to remove the axles and relocate them reward about 7.5" all I need to do is tow it to an authorized dealer for the repair. I asked if they would tow it and how about a fair exchange? Nope, "all you want is a new camper." Ahh yeah cause that's what I paid for! You tow it and we'll fix it with our new engineering design that's it.

What would you do?



I would contact a lawyer and find out if a whole new trailer is possible as it’s still new

propchef 09-12-2021 07:13 PM

It varies from state to state, but generally, the manufacturer can choose to either repair, replace, or refund. If they offered you one of these, the ball is now in your court.

Best of luck.

tuffr2 09-12-2021 08:59 PM

If you can stay on back roads would be safer than the highway. If you like the floor plan and like to afford hassle I would take back roads and take it in to have the axles repositioned.

But this make me wonder if axles are always positioned in the very best place on the frame.

Bowtie Jim 09-15-2021 02:23 PM

The way I see it you have two choices here.
1. Throw some weight in the front and go get it fixed.
I'd be asking for some kind of compensation too.
Like a few thousand.
2. Tell them you are not interested in their "fix" and demand a full refund.

BTW
I'm not buying your used trailer in a few years when I see there has been a major remodeling job underneath it either.
Food for thought.

Cumminsfan 09-15-2021 02:57 PM

Tow it and get it fixed. No guaranty that the next trailer you buy won't have some other issue that won't fix it's self.
It's not rocket science to move axles. Only issue is what about the fender skirting? How will that look when done?

Bowtie Jim 09-15-2021 02:59 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cumminsfan (Post 5915123)
Tow it and get it fixed. No guaranty that the next trailer you buy won't have some other issue that won't fix it's self.
It's not rocket science to move axles. Only issue is what about the fender skirting? How will that look when done?

Very good point Sir.
I see a lot of problems thereAttachment 343179

frankjc1 09-16-2021 04:00 PM

I've been in contact with KZRV at this point they are only 1 solution, I tow it to an authorized dealer for the repair. There is no consideration on their part regarding the fact this is a new camper, their comment that "I'm only looking to get a new camper" expresses their attitude toward their "engineering error."

Backcountry1 09-16-2021 04:15 PM

Which state do you reside in? Which state did you buy the camper from? You can always file a lawsuit in small claims court against KZ claiming that their “engineering error” (which is NOT a warranty claim) has caused economic damage and now loss of use of said camper and you want them to make you financially whole again. I also would file a BBB complaint against KZ.

And just for good measure, I’d call your states DOT office and ask them their thoughts on you towing your TT with such light tongue weight. If they say you shouldn’t tow it then I’d use that as leverage against KZ.

frankjc1 09-18-2021 07:46 AM

Interesting thoughts Backcountry1. As you suggest there is a difference between a Safety Recall and a Warranty and to this point KZRV has continued to refer to this as a warranty issue, "our warranty policy does not include towing." The matter of small claims court has limitations, Connecticut limits claims to $5,000. I've been in touch with the BBB and the Department of Consumer Protection and they are looking into it but as we know they take time, I will however give a call to the DOT and get their opinion. Even my insurance company wrote a letter saying they would take action against KZRV if an accident should occur due to the Safety Recall but that didn't budge them. I did speak with the dealer where I bought the TT and asked if they would help me out with a trade-in, I figure I'll lose money if I sue KZRV on attorney fees so maybe I can minimize that loss and put a portion of the "retainer fee" towards a new TT. Still waiting their response
Thanks for your input

Cumminsfan 09-18-2021 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankjc1 (Post 5918142)
Interesting thoughts Backcountry1. As you suggest there is a difference between a Safety Recall and a Warranty and to this point KZRV has continued to refer to this as a warranty issue, "our warranty policy does not include towing." The matter of small claims court has limitations, Connecticut limits claims to $5,000. I've been in touch with the BBB and the Department of Consumer Protection and they are looking into it but as we know they take time, I will however give a call to the DOT and get their opinion. Even my insurance company wrote a letter saying they would take action against KZRV if an accident should occur due to the Safety Recall but that didn't budge them. I did speak with the dealer where I bought the TT and asked if they would help me out with a trade-in, I figure I'll lose money if I sue KZRV on attorney fees so maybe I can minimize that loss and put a portion of the "retainer fee" towards a new TT. Still waiting their response
Thanks for your input

Why would you want to lose money trading in? You can tow it for fuel money, it will be fixed and like new and you won't lose $$$ trading it in.
I've been a welder on construction jobs and as a DIY'er at home for 45 years. I've built a few utility trailers in my time. This is an easy job for someone with metal working skills. The tricky part IMO is removing the side skirting and relocating the wheel wells and adding the new wheel well trim.
If you have buyers remorse about the floor plan and there's other things that you now realize you don't like about the TT then the axle issue is as good a reason as any to trade it.
I have a TT that I wish the axles were a foot or so more rearward and would be tickled to death if they were moved for free.

frankjc1 09-19-2021 06:28 AM

Interesting thoughts Cumminsfan. The last I heard was KZRV was going to bolt the relocated axles and not weld them. Some of the authorized repair centers don't have the equipment to lift/block the frame so the axles can be cut from the frame. I also understand that the body skirts, wheel wells and wheel well covers are to be replaced but I've not received anything in writing.
As for the TT layout, I really like it, it's just what I was looking for and I'm real glad I was able to buy it. My concerns are, towing it to a repair center (it won't travel over 35 mph safely) the future trade in value and the safety of hand weld vs factory machine weld. Considering my 1st trip out the family ended up with us sliding sideways down the highway (pre-recall notice), I had just enough wit to keep it from jacking, I'm a little skiddish now. Tongue weight makes a huge difference.
Thank you though, your welding experience makes is seem like not to bad a repair.

Cumminsfan 09-19-2021 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankjc1 (Post 5919154)
Interesting thoughts Cumminsfan. The last I heard was KZRV was going to bolt the relocated axles and not weld them. Some of the authorized repair centers don't have the equipment to lift/block the frame so the axles can be cut from the frame. I also understand that the body skirts, wheel wells and wheel well covers are to be replaced but I've not received anything in writing.
As for the TT layout, I really like it, it's just what I was looking for and I'm real glad I was able to buy it. My concerns are, towing it to a repair center (it won't travel over 35 mph safely) the future trade in value and the safety of hand weld vs factory machine weld. Considering my 1st trip out the family ended up with us sliding sideways down the highway (pre-recall notice), I had just enough wit to keep it from jacking, I'm a little skiddish now. Tongue weight makes a huge difference.
Thank you though, your welding experience makes is seem like not to bad a repair.

I'm pretty sure the frames are welded by hand. Look at the welds. Machine welds look perfect.
I also highly doubt they will bolt the spring hangers to the frame. Never seen that done on a big trailer frame.

mikemcbsr 10-15-2021 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cumminsfan (Post 5919456)
I'm pretty sure the frames are welded by hand. Look at the welds. Machine welds look perfect.
I also highly doubt they will bolt the spring hangers to the frame. Never seen that done on a big trailer frame.

I too own a 272FK and the instructions the dealer has requires them to bolt the new hangers to the HSS (hallow structural steel) of the trailer frame. As best as I could tell there is no requirement for a through sleeve added to the HSS or a mounting pad welded to the HSS. Nor does it instruct them to use a mag base drill. Also from what I could tell each hanger will only be attached with a single 3/8"-16 grade 5 bolt (I hope I am wrong about that). Don't hit any potholes at highway speed.
We too like our trailer and the floor plan and I am sympathetic to the dealer as this is not a common repair for them. KZ should have supplied a jig to locate and align the new hangers instead they ask the dealer to measure from the existing welded on hanger whoes width or hole location may or may not be the same as the other. To much to list what I don't like about this repair on this safety recall.
If you are an owner and have had it done to your 272FK how did it turn out?

Cumminsfan 10-16-2021 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikemcbsr (Post 5950924)
I too own a 272FK and the instructions the dealer has requires them to bolt the new hangers to the HSS (hallow structural steel) of the trailer frame. As best as I could tell there is no requirement for a through sleeve added to the HSS or a mounting pad welded to the HSS. Nor does it instruct them to use a mag base drill. Also from what I could tell each hanger will only be attached with a single 3/8"-16 grade 5 bolt (I hope I am wrong about that). Don't hit any potholes at highway speed.
We too like our trailer and the floor plan and I am sympathetic to the dealer as this is not a common repair for them. KZ should have supplied a jig to locate and align the new hangers instead they ask the dealer to measure from the existing welded on hanger whoes width or hole location may or may not be the same as the other. To much to list what I don't like about this repair on this safety recall.
If you are an owner and have had it done to your 272FK how did it turn out?

Well I learned something new today. Who makes that frame?

frankjc1 10-17-2021 05:56 AM

I dropped mine off at the dealership last weekend and it’s still sitting in the lot. I myself don’t see how this ends well for me the owner or the dealer. To locate and drill 4 holes completely opposite from each other and be perfectly perpendicular from each other is unlikely which means the TT will never tow right. At best the tires will wear more quickly at worst the axles will pull off over time.
Last count there were 115 C272FK effected by the recall and there are more issues not as sever that need to be addressed

mikemcbsr 10-17-2021 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cumminsfan (Post 5951769)
Well I learned something new today. Who makes that frame?

Our TT is now at the dealer and I didn't take note of who the frame manufacturer was. I am a retired tradesman with over 40 years of fabricating, welding, machining, machine building and installation and this modification may be beyond the skill set of some RV techs. Simply, the units should be replaced by KZ after all they admit to an "engineering error" as the cause. We were also offered a trade in deal that would cost us a further 15K to move into the same 2022 model. KZ should pay that difference and the recalled units should be sent to a fab shop to have the new hangers properly installed and welded in place before being put back on the market.

Tomahawk 10-18-2021 12:19 AM

Glad it is not my trailer...
To be honest, I don't think moving the axle should be that difficult. I would have lots of concerns about how it is done. I reread this and it sound contradictory. I meant that it shouldn't be difficult if performed by a skill technician with adequate instructions and direction. To do the repair, I would have a gauge made so I could move each hanger exactly the same amount. I doubt it matters if the hanger is moved 7.4 or 7.6 as long as they are all moved the same amount. There is also no way I'd accept a bolt through a hollow frame, it would have to be welded. I completely agree with whoever said this seems beyond the capability of the guy at the local RV shop. I would try to get KZ to allow me to take it a trailer fabricator or repair shop and have them perform the repair. I bet the trailer repair shop (like tractor trailers) is cheaper than the RV dealer for KZ and even if they were not, I'd pay the difference for piece of mind. Just my two cent.
As a side note, you could figure out much they are trying to correct the tongue weight if you measured the current tongue weight, measured the trailer weight, and measured the distance from the center of the axles to the ball. For example, if the trailer weighs 7000lb and the TW is 500lb and the ball to axle center is 200 inches, the trailer CG is 500*200/7000 = 14.3 inches in front of the center of the axles. Moving the axles back 7.5 inches would make the new TW = (14.3+7.5)*7000/(200+7.5) = 735lb none of those numbers are real, just things I made up. Just checking the TW and comparing it to 13% of the GVWR should give you a good idea of how much they should be correcting TW.

Cumminsfan 10-18-2021 11:06 AM

According to the KZ website regarding construction features it shows an NXG frame which according to the pic is a huck bolted frame thats not hollow.
Some pics of the suspension would be nice.
https://www.kz-rv.com/products/conne...struction.html

mikemcbsr 10-19-2021 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cumminsfan (Post 5954158)
According to the KZ website regarding construction features it shows an NXG frame which according to the pic is a huck bolted frame thats not hollow.
Some pics of the suspension would be nice.
https://www.kz-rv.com/products/conne...struction.html

It’s quite conceivable the frame is formed channel and not HSS. When I peaked under it looked like HSS but formed channel would make sense for weight reduction. NXG specs say all components are CNC positioned and robotically welded and slides are huck fastened. This recall “fix” is a sub par compromise so a dealer can possibly do it. I’m betting most dealers would rather farm it out. As I have said from what I understand each hanger will be fastened with one 3/8 bolt. This will have the effect of hanging the suspension on hinge pins. I think the hope is that having the hanger tight to the underside of the frame will limit or prevent movement. Not likely, the hangers will be peening the frames from day one. I hope I am wrong but this is what I was led to believe. Ours is at the dealer and awaiting the parts. We’ll see what the outcome is soon I hope.

Cumminsfan 10-19-2021 06:10 PM

Best of luck to you. It'll be interesting to see how this develops.

Tomahawk 10-19-2021 09:20 PM

I looked at the frame link, it looks like a C-Channel or an I Beam. I knew my frame was an I Beam so I went out and looked at how my Hangers are attached. Made me sad. The load path is crap. Apparently, it is good enough but I would never dream of attaching it the way it was done. It is welded in place but relies on the contact and bending of the hanger center plate and I beam cap. Not a gusset or shear web to be found.
I'd need to see details of the new attachment but I think a good starting point would be what you said earlier, the repair hanger should be attached exactly the same way the original hanger was attached IMHO.

mikemcbsr 10-20-2021 12:37 PM

I received clarification from KZ about the relocation of the axles and the mounting of the new hangers specifically. EACH Hanger will have 4 bolts for fastening, not four bolts for the entire suspension. Some dealers have tackled this job themselves and others have sent the unit out to a trailer/truck shop to get done. Our dealer is waiting for the parts to determine which way they want to go. This job will require that the new hangers are set back 7 1/2" and the axles are 29 1/2" centre to centre. There is a replacement skirting kit and one of the previous holes for the original skirting gets covered up by a yellow reflective marker.
I hope this helps any other owners of this model who have the recall.

JillandBud 10-22-2021 02:32 PM

Bolt or weld? And a couple more questions.
 
We too, have a KZ 272FK on recall. We live in Florida and found out about the recall in Montana in the middle of a 72 day camping trip. We had fiddled with our weight distribution hitch, added a sway bar and new tires to our truck and moved weight to the front of the trailer and the back of the truck. Bud was still exhausted after each day of driving. We had planned mostly back roads and ended up avoiding interstates entirely from Montana all the way home. KZ sent the parts package to a welding and fabrication outfit near us (I found them and gave KZ the contact). We expect a fix date soon. We have questions:

1. Bolt or weld? According to KZ, the frame was supposed to be bolted, but Norco needed to speed up production so our axle hangers are welded. If the fabricator welds the new ones, KZ won’t warrant the welds. Should we insist they bolt it?

2. We are contemplating buying a ProPride 3P hitch as we are going full time once the fix is done. Would that be enough to overcome any lingering problems with the towing? Would it be worth it? Would we then be able to use our hitch rack on the trailer, which we bought but couldn’t use the way it tows now?

3. We have uneven wear on our tires. One KZ rep said that would happen if the load was off (as it was before the fix) but our warranty rep says we have to take the trailer to a dealer and they will determine what, if anything, comes under warranty. Considering our pain and suffering with this thing so far we think they should just give us new tires. I would have preferred new axles, suspension, wheels and tires, but that won’t happen.

4. If this were you would you just say KZ sucks and get another trailer from a manufacturer not part of the Thor conglomerate?

Tomahawk 10-22-2021 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JillandBud (Post 5959312)
...

1. Bolt or weld? According to KZ, the frame was supposed to be bolted, but Norco needed to speed up production so our axle hangers are welded. If the fabricator welds the new ones, KZ won’t warrant the welds. Should we insist they bolt it?

2. We are contemplating buying a ProPride 3P hitch as we are going full time once the fix is done. Would that be enough to overcome any lingering problems with the towing? Would it be worth it? Would we then be able to use our hitch rack on the trailer, which we bought but couldn’t use the way it tows now?

3. We have uneven wear on our tires. One KZ rep said that would happen if the load was off (as it was before the fix) but our warranty rep says we have to take the trailer to a dealer and they will determine what, if anything, comes under warranty. Considering our pain and suffering with this thing so far we think they should just give us new tires. I would have preferred new axles, suspension, wheels and tires, but that won’t happen.

4. If this were you would you just say KZ sucks and get another trailer from a manufacturer not part of the Thor conglomerate?

1. I would either weld and bolt or just bolt. KZ is saying to bolt it so I would do that without question. I can think of how the weld would hurt so I'd treat that as optional.
2. I would get repair done and then tow it before spending money on a new hitch.
3. I think even you could convince them to give you new tires, they would give you crappy tires. Maybe you could convince them to give you a credit with the RV dealer. I don't think this would be worth the time I had to invest in it to get it done. I might take it to the dealer, get them to write something up, and then send that to KZ and say "you owe me tires, they wore out because of your error". My guess you be they offer you a small credit, like $50. The difference in price between the goodyear endurances I got Sams Club and the local RV shops was way more than that.
4. I would wait until after the fix to make any judgement. The fact that they are making repairs and not just telling you to front load the trailer is something. I could be wrong and the repair is being forced by DOT, I don't know.
I am not surprised this mistake as made. It is probably a simple math error, like someone entered 100lb instead of 10lb for something. Engineers make errors all the time. What surprises me about this is the did not check the first one built with a scale. I would have made the first one, measured the Trailer weight and Tongue Weight, and thought "that ain't right, I must have made an error somewhere". It couldn't take more than an hour to take the measurements.

mikemcbsr 10-23-2021 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomahawk (Post 5959353)
1. I would either weld and bolt or just bolt. KZ is saying to bolt it so I would do that without question. I can think of how the weld would hurt so I'd treat that as optional.
2. I would get repair done and then tow it before spending money on a new hitch.
3. I think even you could convince them to give you new tires, they would give you crappy tires. Maybe you could convince them to give you a credit with the RV dealer. I don't think this would be worth the time I had to invest in it to get it done. I might take it to the dealer, get them to write something up, and then send that to KZ and say "you owe me tires, they wore out because of your error". My guess you be they offer you a small credit, like $50. The difference in price between the goodyear endurances I got Sams Club and the local RV shops was way more than that.
4. I would wait until after the fix to make any judgement. The fact that they are making repairs and not just telling you to front load the trailer is something. I could be wrong and the repair is being forced by DOT, I don't know.
I am not surprised this mistake as made. It is probably a simple math error, like someone entered 100lb instead of 10lb for something. Engineers make errors all the time. What surprises me about this is the did not check the first one built with a scale. I would have made the first one, measured the Trailer weight and Tongue Weight, and thought "that ain't right, I must have made an error somewhere". It couldn't take more than an hour to take the measurements.

I agree with this advice. The "repair" was approved by the NHTSA and has to be done. I would stick to the engineered design that requires the new hangers to be bolted on. As for your tires I would suspect you have some axle misalignment either to themselves or to the centreline of the trailer or a combination and if that is the case then it is important to have the axles checked for alignment BEFORE proceeding with the axle relocation as the new hangers are positioned relative to the existing hangers. If the original hangers are off so will your new ones since the instructions are to measure from the originals to position the new hangers.
I can't see how your tires would not be a warranty item if the axles are off.
Although, it could be possible that all the sway on your long trip did cause excess wear but it's worth checking the axles before they proceed.

I am in Canada and was to pull our unit to Florida for the winter but I cancelled that until I am confident it is safe to pull. I tried all the same tricks as Bud but nothing worked. Another issue I hope they factored in is that there is no pass through at the front of this model so the rear gets loaded down with gear. We added an aluminum checker plate box to store what we normally stored at the front in our previous travel trailers. I removed it to see if that was the cause before I knew of the recall but it made no difference. I am going to test it with the box on and filled with the usual gear when we get our unit back. I may add a couple of bicycles to the back too. Good luck.

frankjc1 10-23-2021 11:31 AM

KZ told me this is a warranty issue, I know I know it's a Safety Recall. The Recall notice says it was an engineering error. I understand, a "warranty issue is not the same as a "recall," by calling it a warranty problem will KZ continue to be responsible for all of the issues that are the result of the recall once the warranty expires? I don't know. Will my insurance cover me if something should happen as a result of the recall?



For me, once the work is done, or sooner, I'm trading the thing in and let the dealership worry about it. I tried to trade it in at a different dealership but they haven't got back to me and it's been nearly 10 days. My guess is the word is out! We too bought this unit looking forward to extended travel but to be always worried about the 3/8" axle bolts going at highway speed will be to stressful. I'm I going to have to crawl under the camper and check the frame and torque of the bolts every time I stop for gas? Will the tires wear out or blow out due to misalignment? My guess is this is going to be costly, not to Thor/KZ but to the customer you and me.

Tomahawk 10-23-2021 12:28 PM

I apologize to anyone who read my message above. I made at least five typing errors. They make it hard to read. It made me sad to re-read it.

Bowtie Jim 10-23-2021 02:49 PM

I'm with you frankjc.
I'd cut my losses now rather than a year or two from now.
There are lots of choices for a replacement.

JillandBud 10-25-2021 05:27 AM

Tomahawk wrote:
As a side note, you could figure out much they are trying to correct the tongue weight if you measured the current tongue weight, measured the trailer weight, and measured the distance from the center of the axles to the ball. For example, if the trailer weighs 7000lb and the TW is 500lb and the ball to axle center is 200 inches, the trailer CG is 500*200/7000 = 14.3 inches in front of the center of the axles. Moving the axles back 7.5 inches would make the new TW = (14.3+7.5)*7000/(200+7.5) = 735lb none of those numbers are real, just things I made up. Just checking the TW and comparing it to 13% of the GVWR should give you a good idea of how much they should be correcting TW.

Thanks for this information Tomahawk. We had weighed our hitch and trailer a while ago, so yesterday I got under the trailer and made measurements. Results:

Trailer (partly loaded) 7780lbs. Tongue weight 840lbs. Distance from ball to center of axles 225 inches.

840*225/7780=24.3

New Tongue weight should be

(24.3+7.5)*7780/(225+7.5)= 1064

This is 13.6% of the trailer weight.

I find this result encouraging. We will get the unit repaired and see how it tows. We will point out the uneven tire wear to the repair shop and have them check the axle alignment. (Our measurements don’t indicate misalignment, but crawling around on the ground isn’t the most accurate.)

My husband is looking for reasons to trade. I would rather not take the loss. We’ll see. I will post our progress.

I appreciate this forum. Great not to feel so alone dealing with this.

mikemcbsr 10-25-2021 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JillandBud (Post 5961988)
Tomahawk wrote:
As a side note, you could figure out much they are trying to correct the tongue weight if you measured the current tongue weight, measured the trailer weight, and measured the distance from the center of the axles to the ball. For example, if the trailer weighs 7000lb and the TW is 500lb and the ball to axle center is 200 inches, the trailer CG is 500*200/7000 = 14.3 inches in front of the center of the axles. Moving the axles back 7.5 inches would make the new TW = (14.3+7.5)*7000/(200+7.5) = 735lb none of those numbers are real, just things I made up. Just checking the TW and comparing it to 13% of the GVWR should give you a good idea of how much they should be correcting TW.

Thanks for this information Tomahawk. We had weighed our hitch and trailer a while ago, so yesterday I got under the trailer and made measurements. Results:

Trailer (partly loaded) 7780lbs. Tongue weight 840lbs. Distance from ball to center of axles 225 inches.

840*225/7780=24.3

New Tongue weight should be

(24.3+7.5)*7780/(225+7.5)= 1064

This is 13.6% of the trailer weight.

I find this result encouraging. We will get the unit repaired and see how it tows. We will point out the uneven tire wear to the repair shop and have them check the axle alignment. (Our measurements don’t indicate misalignment, but crawling around on the ground isn’t the most accurate.)

My husband is looking for reasons to trade. I would rather not take the loss. We’ll see. I will post our progress.

I appreciate this forum. Great not to feel so alone dealing with this.

I measured our pin weight (tongue weight) with two 30lb propane tanks and 2 batteries and the cupboards filled with our usual stuff and it weighed 654lbs. The sticker on the door lists it at 615lbs. I would have thought that a bell would have rung that a tt over 7000lbs had a measured tongue weight of only 615lbs. (less than 10%). I am satisfied with the repair procedure and engineering and if done by competent people it should be fine. I have asked to be present when the work gets done. I'll take triangulation measurements when it's done. I want to video the work as it happens.
I am curious JiilBud, what does the sticker on your door list the tongue weight at?

JillandBud 10-25-2021 05:36 PM

Our door sticker says:
HW 650 lbs
UVW 6940 lbs
Max. Cargo 2300 lbs

So yes, HW<10% Didn’t anyone notice?

Tomahawk 10-25-2021 09:05 PM

I bet the 650 and 615 are the calculated numbers (incorrectly calculated). The two 30LB tanks and 2 batteries should added 240 pounds to the published TW. On my TT the published TW is 350LB for 5000LB GVWR trailer. I measured it at 650 with two batteries, one 20LB tank and the trailer loaded to about 4200 LB.

JillandBud 11-04-2021 03:02 PM

Axles have been moved - results
 
Our axles were moved by a welding and fabrication shop near us. They decided to weld the new hangers as accessing the underside to cut and thread and bolt was a problem. We are not worried about the welds, these guys work on big rigs all the time and the welds look good. They did find that the spacing of the spring hangers was 3/16 inch too short on the left side of the rear axle. Don’t know if that caused the tire wear, but KZ says we have to take it to a dealer to have it checked and submit a claim.

We haven’t towed it on an interstate or in the wind so can’t report on that. But we did take it back and weighed the tongue again. This time it was 1,020 lbs., which is 13.1% of the total trailer weight as loaded (by the way, we have power stabilizing jacks, which may add weight).

Meanwhile…have you other KZ owners gotten the new safety recall? There’s a possible problem with the seal on the propane regulator. No timeline on the replacement, it’s not available now.

mikemcbsr 11-05-2021 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JillandBud (Post 5974491)
Our axles were moved by a welding and fabrication shop near us. They decided to weld the new hangers as accessing the underside to cut and thread and bolt was a problem. We are not worried about the welds, these guys work on big rigs all the time and the welds look good. They did find that the spacing of the spring hangers was 3/16 inch too short on the left side of the rear axle. Don’t know if that caused the tire wear, but KZ says we have to take it to a dealer to have it checked and submit a claim.

We haven’t towed it on an interstate or in the wind so can’t report on that. But we did take it back and weighed the tongue again. This time it was 1,020 lbs., which is 13.1% of the total trailer weight as loaded (by the way, we have power stabilizing jacks, which may add weight).

Meanwhile…have you other KZ owners gotten the new safety recall? There’s a possible problem with the seal on the propane regulator. No timeline on the replacement, it’s not available now.

Our dealer is still waiting for the parts for the axle recall. I haven't received the regulator recall yet.
Does the yellow marker tape covering the hole in the side panel look tacky? How does the new wheel well skirting look?

JillandBud 11-05-2021 01:57 PM

The yellow tape looks like a reflector. It took me a bit to realize the the new reflector was actually covering the hole. The wheel well skirting looks identical to the original. The plain skirting was spliced on the door side under the door, so the steps are in front of it when you’re camped. I really have no complaints about the looks.

mikemcbsr 11-10-2021 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JillandBud (Post 5975677)
The yellow tape looks like a reflector. It took me a bit to realize the the new reflector was actually covering the hole. The wheel well skirting looks identical to the original. The plain skirting was spliced on the door side under the door, so the steps are in front of it when you’re camped. I really have no complaints about the looks.

That is good to hear. Have you had a chance to tow it at highway speeds yet?

frankjc1 11-11-2021 07:45 AM

I'm still waiting
 
Mine is still sitting in the dealers lot, they've contacted a frame shop in another town to see if they'll do the work and haven't heard back yet. The one question I wanted answered is if the facility has the ability to align the axles to the frame. My concern is that if the alignment were off even just a bit, there would be undo wear and tear on the tires and breaks on both the trailer and the truck. It may haul fine but an off alignment would increase our maintenance and of course KZ/Thor will wash their hands of the problem once the "warranty" expires and place the blame on the repair.

I've had other quality issues with the unit as well. The control panel which is mounted on the paneling along side the refrigerator fell off. There's not enough meat for the screws to hold onto so they just fell out (the newer units have it screwed into the fireplace mantel. Remember I'm a seasonal camper so there isn't much over use. The interior door jams are misaligned enough so that the doors don't stay closed, I had to take the catches off so they would stay shut. Any way the list goes on... Now lets add the latest Recall for the propane regulator which is not available for replacement. Just think all this time we were using the KZ at the risk of either being blown up or never waking up again. Yeah I just love my KZ.

4everlooking 11-19-2021 07:43 AM

I purchased a 2021 22RBS a month ago. Since I'm not the original buyer, is the propane recall specific for a certain model? Will I be notified being the 2nd owner? What should I look for anything visible for propane issue? This is my first RV w/propane. My previous MH was diesel/electric. Thanks in advance for any insight.

CharlesinGA 11-19-2021 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4everlooking (Post 5990730)
I purchased a 2021 22RBS a month ago. Since I'm not the original buyer, is the propane recall specific for a certain model? Will I be notified being the 2nd owner? What should I look for anything visible for propane issue? This is my first RV w/propane. My previous MH was diesel/electric. Thanks in advance for any insight.

The Propane regulator recall affects Winntec brand regulators made from 2017 to 2020. Though not mentioned in the recall that I know of, the Flame King and some Erenco regulators also are identical to this. This is a pic of one, the regulator is upside down but you will know if yours looks like this, the red/green window on the front is a giveaway.

The regulators may have a white plastic cover on the lower half of them as this is a required safety item on regulators.

https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/p...Changeover.jpg

Look at this Jayco document, specifically page 4. It will show how to find the date code IF A WINNTEC. Date codes on Flame King or Erenco may be different and there is no way of knowing if they are affected (YET) but since they all appear to be made in the same Chinese factory, I would get rid of it if you have one that visually looks like this.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/202...1V425-2996.pdf

Assuming you have a KZ Connect SE 221RBS from your description the NHTSA lists one recall for them, which is the propane regulator recall (other models also may have a propane hose recall)

https://www.nhtsa.gov/vehicle/2021/K...2520SE#recalls

August 27, 2021 NHTSA CAMPAIGN NUMBER: 21V670000
Propane Regulator May Fail and Cause Fire
Increased propane pressure can enlarge the flames in gas appliances, increasing the risk of a fire.

NHTSA Campaign Number: 21V670000

Manufacturer KZRV, L.P.

Components EQUIPMENT

Potential Number of Units Affected 34,345

Summary

KZRV, L.P. (KZRV) is recalling certain 2018-2022 Camplite, Confluence, Connect, Connect SE, Connect Lite, Durango, Durango Gold, Durango Half Ton, Durango Sport, Durango 1500, Quicksilver, Sonic, Sonic X, Sportsmen, Sportsmen FW, Sportsmen LE, Sportsmen SE, Sportsmen Sportster, Sportster, SportTrek, SportTrek Touring, Spree, Stratus, Venom, and Venom V Series recreational vehicles, equipped with Winntec model 6020 two-stage propane regulators. The regulator may fail, causing an increase in propane pressure.

Remedy

Dealers will replace the regulator and pigtail hoses, free of charge. Owners were notified of the defect on October 26, 2021. A second letter will be sent once a final remedy is available. Owners may contact KZRV customer service at 1-800-768-4016 ext. 154 or 153. KZRV's number for this recall is KZ-2021-05.

Notes

Owners may also contact the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration Vehicle Safety Hotline at 1-888-327-4236 (TTY 1-800-424-9153), or go to www.nhtsa.gov.

125 Affected Products
5 Associated Documents
Recall AcknowledgementRCAK-21V670-9159.pdf 652.831KB https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/202...1V670-9159.pdf

Defect Notice 573 ReportRCLRPT-21V670-5141.PDF 223.319KB https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/202...1V670-5141.PDF

Miscellaneous Document - ChronologyRMISC-21V670-6106.pdf 56.54KB https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/202...1V670-6106.pdf

Recall 573 Report - Amendment 1RCLRPT-21V670-7529.PDF 223.372KB https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/202...1V670-7529.PDF

ISSUED Interim Owner Notification Letter(Part 577)RIONL-21V670-4224.pdf 229.748KB https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/202...1V670-4224.pdf

Interesting to note in the chronology "5/24/21 & 5/25/21 - Meeting with Grand Design, Dehco, Winnspec International, and Chen Fong at Livonia, MI testing facility, to discuss regulator investigation. Chen Fong agrees the regulator is allowing higher pressure than expected with a compromised second stage seal.

5/27/21–Safety Committee Meetings conducted at KZ RV, Keystone RV and Jayco RV. All safety committees decide to move forward with a recall for safety for units built with a defective Winntec Model 6020 regulator."


Charles

4everlooking 11-20-2021 03:35 PM

CharlesinGA, thank you VERY much for that link and insight. We purchased the trailer about 3 weeks before the recall it looks like. I will go to where it is stored and verify the regulator. It looks like the picture as I recall from memory. My wife isn't happy, she is the one who picked this one out and insisted on it.

CharlesinGA 11-20-2021 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4everlooking (Post 5992138)
CharlesinGA, thank you VERY much for that link and insight. We purchased the trailer about 3 weeks before the recall it looks like. I will go to where it is stored and verify the regulator. It looks like the picture as I recall from memory. My wife isn't happy, she is the one who picked this one out and insisted on it.

Take a tape measure and determine the length of the pigtails to the tank. Most likely 15 inch, this will aid in replacing parts. The pigtails are separate parts, however the recall calls for replacement of the pigtails and the regulator together. Get a reliable unit. Marshall Excelsior MEGR-253 is a USA made regulator that can be depended on.

Virtually all brands and locations are out of stock on regulators. There are some 35,000 regulators affected, probably more. If you are not using the RV this winter, I would wait until stocks come back up. Things should settle out by spring.

Charles

4everlooking 11-21-2021 03:19 PM

Checked today and yes mine is one that needs replaced. I'll wait till spring but will make changes then. Thanks again for the heads up.

Dgarrison688 11-22-2021 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankjc1 (Post 5911252)
I own a 2021 KZ C272FK and just received a Safety Recall notice stating that due to an engineering error the tongue weight is to lite. This explains why I ended up sliding sideways down the highway. I've owned this camper a few short months it has a great floor plan but you're risking your life if you tow it. KZ says they need to remove the axles and relocate them reward about 7.5" all I need to do is tow it to an authorized dealer for the repair. I asked if they would tow it and how about a fair exchange? Nope, "all you want is a new camper." Ahh yeah cause that's what I paid for! You tow it and we'll fix it with our new engineering design that's it.

What would you do?

I am an rv technician and literally just got done doing this recall on a unit 10 minutes ago, no need to worry ots an easy fix,you will lose your camper for 2 or 3 days which sucks but the job is easy, just time consuming to do it properly. As far as the J wrap "side skirt" and fender flares the factory supplies all brand new to replace the old, and the one I just did looks better than before and is now safe to you. Take it to the dealer don't waste or lose money trading in or fighting the manufacturer.

mikemcbsr 11-22-2021 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dgarrison688 (Post 5993997)
I am an rv technician and literally just got done doing this recall on a unit 10 minutes ago, no need to worry ots an easy fix,you will lose your camper for 2 or 3 days which sucks but the job is easy, just time consuming to do it properly. As far as the J wrap "side skirt" and fender flares the factory supplies all brand new to replace the old, and the one I just did looks better than before and is now safe to you. Take it to the dealer don't waste or lose money trading in or fighting the manufacturer.

The TSB quotes 12 man hours. Was this accurate? Did you bolt the hangers on or weld them?

lisaz 11-23-2021 09:24 AM

I would absolutely want every penny that I paid for it refunded on return of the dangerously improperly engineered trailer!! The most simple scale check prior to mass manufacturing would have shown the error!

Sent from my moto e (XT2052DL) using iRV2 - RV Forum mobile app

frankjc1 11-26-2021 08:57 AM

Longevity
 
I'm not sure but I believe KZ shops out their frames and then assembles the TT. If this is so KZ is likely recouping their losses from the frame manufacturer. Additionally, KZ was very quick to classify this as a Warranty issue even though it is a Recall. The definition of warranty and a recall are substantially different and I believe gives KZ a way out should the repair fail sometime later; which brings me to my next concern. No matter how the remedy came about there is no history as to the effectiveness of their resolution, yes it may work for now but for how long? I for one am not comfortable with the thought of hauling my TT at highway speeds to the sudden realization the axles tore off and are now in someones windshield while I go skidding down the road.
I believe KZ is in a position to replace all of the effected Travel Trailers with new updated TTs, recoup their losses from the frame manufacturer and provide good costumer service. By passing their responsibility off onto the dealership they likely maintain their profit, recoup their costs for the repair, call it a warranty issue and absolve themselves of future claims once the warranty expires and claim that the dealership is at fault if there is further issues as they are the ones who administered the repair. Of course this is just an opinion.
I did try to trade in my 2021 TT for a different unit at a different dealership, they offered me $10,000 less then what I paid for it. Is it depreciation or a market reaction?

mikemcbsr 11-27-2021 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankjc1 (Post 5997778)
I'm not sure but I believe KZ shops out their frames and then assembles the TT. If this is so KZ is likely recouping their losses from the frame manufacturer. Additionally, KZ was very quick to classify this as a Warranty issue even though it is a Recall. The definition of warranty and a recall are substantially different and I believe gives KZ a way out should the repair fail sometime later; which brings me to my next concern. No matter how the remedy came about there is no history as to the effectiveness of their resolution, yes it may work for now but for how long? I for one am not comfortable with the thought of hauling my TT at highway speeds to the sudden realization the axles tore off and are now in someones windshield while I go skidding down the road.
I believe KZ is in a position to replace all of the effected Travel Trailers with new updated TTs, recoup their losses from the frame manufacturer and provide good costumer service. By passing their responsibility off onto the dealership they likely maintain their profit, recoup their costs for the repair, call it a warranty issue and absolve themselves of future claims once the warranty expires and claim that the dealership is at fault if there is further issues as they are the ones who administered the repair. Of course this is just an opinion.
I did try to trade in my 2021 TT for a different unit at a different dealership, they offered me $10,000 less then what I paid for it. Is it depreciation or a market reaction?

I believe the frames on our units are supplied by Norco-BAL. I would suspect that the "engineering error" is the fault of KZ as the supplier would build to their specs. Norco was consulted and engineered the replacement hangers and likely the procedure for the replacement. The original hangers are welded on and the replacements are to be bolted on with 3/8-16 bolts and a deformed lock nut from what I understand. KZ says that Norco has stopped welding on the hangers on new builds and have reverted to bolting them on. The difference is they are huck bolted whereas the safety recall hangers are bolted with conventional hardware. When I asked why are the replacement hangers not welded or huck bolted their answer is that one requires a certified welder and the other requires specialized tools, neither of which most dealerships have. My suspicion is KZ used the same frame from the previous generation of this model, which was redesigned for 2021, and there the problem began...as I said this is just my suspicion.
As for the trade in, 10K below your purchase price seems about right to me. For a dealer to deflect a buyer from a new unit to a used unit there has to be a substantial savings to the buyer to consider doing that and leave profit for the dealer.
My concern with all of this is that it is done right by competent people with experience with metal work and axle alignment. I don't want this problem to create other problems like excess tire wear, etc. There was a unit where it was found that the axles were already misaligned before starting the work to relocate the hangers and the tires had excessive uneven wear already. The procedure is to measure off the new location from the existing hangers. Good thing that shop checked first...and that is not in the procedure I have seen. Good luck to us all.

Dgarrison688 12-06-2021 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikemcbsr (Post 5994578)
The TSB quotes 12 man hours. Was this accurate? Did you bolt the hangers on or weld them?

It took me 18.5, it was the first one our dealership had done so it took me a little longer than expected and I was the only tech working on it. So I'd have to say its close but the factory never pays or allots adequate time for us to do anything

Dgarrison688 12-06-2021 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikemcbsr (Post 5994578)
The TSB quotes 12 man hours. Was this accurate? Did you bolt the hangers on or weld them?

And forgot to mention in the last response it is a bolt on kit that they supply to us, which is honestly what takes so long you have to drill a 3/8 hole 5 per hanger and you have to cut the old ones off the frame without damaging it. Not a hard job to do but definitely frustrating as hell

4everlooking 12-06-2021 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4everlooking (Post 5993087)
Checked today and yes mine is one that needs replaced. I'll wait till spring but will make changes then. Thanks again for the heads up.

Just talked to my dealership concerning the propane regulator recall. I'm on the list for having it done, whenever the parts come in. There are none available anywhere in the country, don't know if or when there will be. But at least I'm on a waiting list.:banghead:

JillandBud 12-07-2021 05:13 AM

We have given up on the warranty
 
We are about to become full time RVer’s. I think we were lucky in finding a welding shop to do our frame…the axels are welded and the shop warrants their work. The only issue we had was that we thought we had no brakes and they spent about an hour checking lines, etc. before they realized the self adjusting brakes had come out of adjustment. By the time we cautiously got the trailer home the brakes were back to normal.

We found a replacement gas regulator ourselves at Camping World. It was a Mr. Heater by Enerco. When we went to install it we saw it was the same regulator we had. I went on line and all Enerco regulators of that model were on recall. I called Enerco and they said everything made after 2018 was wrong. They said at the time of the recall they still had some stock from a large order placed in 2017, but the tech couldn’t tell me which mine was. They were using their high capacity model as a replacement. I bought one from them as I didn’t think it was available locally. Cost me more as they won’t undersell their retailers and I had to pay shipping but it got here in 3 days. We also had to replace the pigtails as the old ones wouldn’t come off the old regulator. So about $150 later we’re set. It’s a nicer regulator because you can see the red empty signal from the top opening on the propane tank cover, no removing the cover until you have to fill a tank.

We have over a year left in our warranty, but figure in reality, considering how long it takes to resolve a warranty issue, we’re on our own.

And, by the way, after a lot of input about the poor tires on the campers from the factory we did not pursue a warranty fix on our uneven tire wear. We bought four new tires with a higher weight rating.

mikemcbsr 12-07-2021 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dgarrison688 (Post 6007983)
It took me 18.5, it was the first one our dealership had done so it took me a little longer than expected and I was the only tech working on it. So I'd have to say its close but the factory never pays or allots adequate time for us to do anything

Thank you.
Our unit has yet to be done and our dealer is undecided if they are going to do it or send it out to a truck and trailer shop.

mikemcbsr 12-07-2021 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JillandBud (Post 6009136)
We are about to become full time RVer’s. I think we were lucky in finding a welding shop to do our frame…the axels are welded and the shop warrants their work. The only issue we had was that we thought we had no brakes and they spent about an hour checking lines, etc. before they realized the self adjusting brakes had come out of adjustment. By the time we cautiously got the trailer home the brakes were back to normal.

We found a replacement gas regulator ourselves at Camping World. It was a Mr. Heater by Enerco. When we went to install it we saw it was the same regulator we had. I went on line and all Enerco regulators of that model were on recall. I called Enerco and they said everything made after 2018 was wrong. They said at the time of the recall they still had some stock from a large order placed in 2017, but the tech couldn’t tell me which mine was. They were using their high capacity model as a replacement. I bought one from them as I didn’t think it was available locally. Cost me more as they won’t undersell their retailers and I had to pay shipping but it got here in 3 days. We also had to replace the pigtails as the old ones wouldn’t come off the old regulator. So about $150 later we’re set. It’s a nicer regulator because you can see the red empty signal from the top opening on the propane tank cover, no removing the cover until you have to fill a tank.

We have over a year left in our warranty, but figure in reality, considering how long it takes to resolve a warranty issue, we’re on our own.

And, by the way, after a lot of input about the poor tires on the campers from the factory we did not pursue a warranty fix on our uneven tire wear. We bought four new tires with a higher weight rating.

hi, have you towed it at highway speed since the axle relocation? If so, were you happy with the result?

JillandBud 12-08-2021 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikemcbsr (Post 6009328)
hi, have you towed it at highway speed since the axle relocation? If so, were you happy with the result?

We have taken it about 120 miles, 45 of which are an open 2 lane. Top speed 64 or so and no wind. So far okay, but we don’t consider that definitive.

4everlooking 12-08-2021 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JillandBud (Post 6009136)
We are about to become full time RVer’s. I think we were lucky in finding a welding shop to do our frame…the axels are welded and the shop warrants their work. The only issue we had was that we thought we had no brakes and they spent about an hour checking lines, etc. before they realized the self adjusting brakes had come out of adjustment. By the time we cautiously got the trailer home the brakes were back to normal.

We found a replacement gas regulator ourselves at Camping World. It was a Mr. Heater by Enerco. When we went to install it we saw it was the same regulator we had. I went on line and all Enerco regulators of that model were on recall. I called Enerco and they said everything made after 2018 was wrong. They said at the time of the recall they still had some stock from a large order placed in 2017, but the tech couldn’t tell me which mine was. They were using their high capacity model as a replacement. I bought one from them as I didn’t think it was available locally. Cost me more as they won’t undersell their retailers and I had to pay shipping but it got here in 3 days. We also had to replace the pigtails as the old ones wouldn’t come off the old regulator. So about $150 later we’re set. It’s a nicer regulator because you can see the red empty signal from the top opening on the propane tank cover, no removing the cover until you have to fill a tank.

We have over a year left in our warranty, but figure in reality, considering how long it takes to resolve a warranty issue, we’re on our own.

And, by the way, after a lot of input about the poor tires on the campers from the factory we did not pursue a warranty fix on our uneven tire wear. We bought four new tires with a higher weight rating.

Would you have a model # for the propane regulator? I've got mine set up for a recall fix, but no idea how long till any are available. thanks

JillandBud 12-22-2021 06:29 AM

Update on the axle move. We are now about 675 miles into our travels. We have driven parts of two days in gusty winds, including crosswinds of 18mph. We have a bumper hitch rack on the back and a bicycle hanging from the ladder. The trailer did fine, it is definitely much better than before the axle move. We will continue to avoid interstates, because we’ve found we prefer that, but we don’t feel we have to at this point.

JillandBud 12-22-2021 10:38 AM

Sorry, in the rush to sell the house and get on the road I forgot to send this. Model is Mr. Heater F273846

mikemcbsr 12-22-2021 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JillandBud (Post 6024661)
Update on the axle move. We are now about 675 miles into our travels. We have driven parts of two days in gusty winds, including crosswinds of 18mph. We have a bumper hitch rack on the back and a bicycle hanging from the ladder. The trailer did fine, it is definitely much better than before the axle move. We will continue to avoid interstates, because we’ve found we prefer that, but we don’t feel we have to at this point.

Thank you for the update. It sounds encouraging.
Happy and safe travels.
Merry Christmas!

frankjc1 01-24-2022 03:50 PM

Huck bolting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cumminsfan (Post 5954158)
According to the KZ website regarding construction features it shows an NXG frame which according to the pic is a huck bolted frame thats not hollow.
Some pics of the suspension would be nice.
https://www.kz-rv.com/products/conne...struction.html

My dealership has found a frame shop that will do the work and will HUCK bolt the axles in place. The question they have is, "what type of gun is being used?" Their concern is what they use may be to powerful. I have no idea what the specification are, any thought?
Thanks

Tomahawk 01-24-2022 08:36 PM

The Huck catalog should tell them which guns will work. I doubt a gun can be too powerful. Maybe not powerful enough. The Huck bolts I have used are are a headed pin with a tapered section, a smaller section, and a notch. You drill a tight tolerance hole, put the pin in from the backside. Slide the locking collar (looks like a nut) on from the front side and then use the gun. The gun grabs pin, pushes the nut, and pulls the pin all the same time. It press fits the pin in the hole, pushes the nut against the mating part, and then snaps off the pin at the notch. Too powerful wouldn't do anything because the notch limits hard you can pull on the pin before it breaks. Too weak and the collar/nut wouldn't press on and the pin wouldn't snap. They are a pretty slick designand you get a joint with zero clearance and slip.


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