Verbal Agreement between buyer and seller
 

Hello all. I am currently in a situation with my recent purchase of a class A pusher. I am seeking advice as to what would be a fair option for both parties. I will try to explain it as simple as I can. I bought this rig with the understanding that the owner was going to have the generator repaired. Seems the mobile mechanic he used had a hard time to get it to run, he ended up throwing lots of parts at it, over $3k so he did attempt to make it right. On the day I went to pick it up the generator was in fact running and seem to have been running well So I did not hesitate so I paid him and took delivery. By the time I got home the generator was smoking beyond my belief. I called him he said its probably because it hasn't been run in so long. Well days went by weeks went by and problem did not go away and actually started to die after running for short periods of time. Then one day it would not start. Of course I talked to him he feels no responsibility. I have it a shop now they told me it has 2 dead cylinders. They found large amounts of starting fluid in the crankcase. Seem person who worked on it last attempted to start using a lot of starting fluid, that destroyed the engine.
Well a replacement generator is in the $12k range and to top it off backordered 6-9 months. My question or advice I am looking for is am wrong to think he is still responsible for it at the very least half. I feel bad it was not his fault he put his trust on the mobile mechanic. I don't see how I should be stuck with this entire bill for the generator. I am considering taking him to small claims court, I feel I dont have anything to loose. I would like to hear from anyone who may or may not have had any experiences with something like this.

Was there a sales contract?

Unless there was a warranty provided to you I would say the seller has no further liability. I know it doesn’t sit well , but you bought a used RV. Personally, I would suck it up and move on.
Charlie

If the Bill of Sale said "as is" it's your problem. You also wrote:

Had you raised the issue in the first few days, preferably as you arrived home and saw the smoke, and gotten a negotiated resolution in writing somehow, you may have had a chance.

Right now the onus will be on you to prove that you did not use the starting fluid because "weeks went by".

Good luck,

Ray

The verbal agreement is worth about as much the paper it is written on.

That said, the primary principle at play is caveat emptor. Buyer beware.

Unless you can prove the seller intentionally tried to defraud you, you don't have much recourse. As you stated, he made a good faith effort to have it repaired and you accepted that repair.

To be honest, it's your issue to deal with at this point.

It's not what you want to hear, but based on your telling, that's where it's at.

You bought it used with no guarantee.

You were satisfied with the operation at final inspection, paid and drove away.

Weeks went by...

I think you should move on...

The prior owner has no idea what could have been done to it once you left (sorry).

Sad - sometimes things sneak by all of us...

Unless you've got a warranty it's an as is sale.

Did it make power while it was running? If so the engine is the only problem, rebuild it, find a rebuild or used one. You'll save a bunch of money and have it a lot sooner.

Sounds like it ran when you bought it. Unless you have a warranty it is your responsibility. Would you feel the same if the ac quit tomorrow? It worked when you bought it. Best to forget about the seller helping you.

As is where is.. unless written warranty in ohio.. verbal or not.. must be in writing.. salesperson can say it matches color of your eyes.. no count.. I am not atty.. but if I were you.. find another shop.. get a second hobby.. learn to turn wrenches.. you can read.. so get a 15.00 book on small eng repair.. parts probably 800.00 from what you describe.. basic hand tools.. May need to rent some.. or hit rv salvage yards.. you might turn this experience into a learning experience.. and have fun along the ride.. that's what rving is about.. we fix things.. they break all the time.. and when we are at a loss.. we turn here.. to our FRIENDS and families that give us a push. Tell us their story and get opinions on how to make repairs.. I have been trying to get mine going for 4yrs now.. with so many resources here.. the ride has been great.. and I have never left the driveway.. so.. tear it down.. tell us what you find.. we will chime in.. good luck and keep us posted.. you can call your local court house and talk to a real atty for free.. just to see.. bet you will not be happy with what you hear.. sorry.. or drop 5,000.00 on atty and court fees.. and see what happens..

It's your responsibility now. Once you paid final amount and took possession it's yours.

You can use your MH just fine without the genny until you decided how you want to get it fixed. Me personally, I'd do what donr103 above said. I'd take it slow, study up, take pics, post them here, make a plan and fix it myself. They really aren't that hard to work on. It would be your first baptism working on your coach. I would NOT pay 12K for a new one or wait 2yrs.

Leave the seller alone, this is your problem.

You live in Ca. and used vehicle sales are “as is” unless provisions are in writing. Seller made good faith attempt to repair. Generator ran at time of purchase. Both you and the seller believed the generator was repaired. You accepted the repair, sale was completed. End of seller’s responsibility.

From your description, the generator could have very well been properly repaired when you bought it, but it suffered internal damage from oil diluted by starting fluid. That damage was due to repeated running, and the seller had no control over that.

Get it repaired and move on.

Just to let you know, there are used generators available for way less than the 12K you are talking about . Check out here https://usedrvparts.visonerv.com/cgi-bin/welcome.pl?

"As-is, where is" UNLESS the seller knowingly and intentionally made misleading or untruthful representations to a buyer regarding condition and/or operability prior to sale. It seems the mechanic did little more than soak the generator with ether to start it. I would question the seller about the alleged $3k repair bill and obtain the receipts for that work. If the mechanic made X repairs to the generator and was paid for it, there is some expectation the issue's been resolved. Starting fluid is used somewhat sparingly--there's a reason it's called "starting" fluid, not "running" fluid! But if this "mechanic" used so much it pooled up in the crankcase, then he clearly has no idea what he's doing and has apparently caused real damage. Hopefully he's insured. Beware these "mobile technicians". Anyone with a '98 Mercury Mystique, two screwdrivers, and a pair of jumper cables can be one. You should probably seek advice from an attorney.

Edit: I just realized you have a diesel generator. If this mobile mechanic used ether starting fluid in it, it will likely need rebuilt. Would be much cheaper to locate a used generator. Ether is for gas combustion engines, whereas diesels are compression engines.

Welcome to the RV world something always breaks. My opinion you bought it as is.

While this post may seem a bit "harsh", I completely agree with the initial recommendation. This isn't the seller's fault, and you would most likely quickly lose in court.

Find a competent shop to replace the motor in the genset, and move on so you can enjoy your new ride.

FWIW, I don't believe the claim that the generator motor oil was contaminated by "starting fluid" because that stuff is designed to become a highly flammable gas the instant it comes out of the aerosol can. As a vapor, it can help get a motor started, but I don't think it can return to a liquid state and dilute the oil in a crankcase. It is more likely that badly worn or broken piston ring(s) allowed raw fuel to dilute the oil.

It became your problem when you took possession. How do you know that the shop you took it to isn't wrong about the diagnosis. Go get a second opinion.

Its a good thing I have thick skin on the matter :). I appreciate all the inputs for my situation, I think I knew the answer all the along just needed it confirmed. It really is a bummer but its almost always the case when you buy used. I just now secured a new 8k unit coming out of Kentucky. My boss (wife) made her decision to buy new rather than used for $3k less. I am ok with it and I will take the advice on keeping the old unit and rebuild the engine and maybe trying selling on my own. There are a lot of brand new parts that were put on just before I took delivery. Thanks again for all the input, much appreciated.

Whatever you do, get it in print and signed.

Ken

Thanks for the feedback and I, for one, commend you for your positive attitude.:thumb:

Yes, you opened yourself up for some blunt responses (mine included,) but you have done everyone a service by relating this unfortunate experience and the lesson learned.

Good luck and enjoy your new RV.

I agree with your last comment. If the generator has been running, no way that "starter fluid" was still around since it is highly volatile. Not sure I would trust the shop that looked at your generator if that is their diagnosis.

I'm no lawyer but I've read plenty of Reddit and Quora :) where this sort of question often comes up and believe that verbal agreements are usually just as binding as written agreements. That's the theory but ... in practice, I don't think that will help you much.

The problem of course is proving what was agreed to. Even if both parties are honest and reasonable, there can be a misunderstanding.

I don't know how small claims court works but I guess if the judge or whoever asks the seller "Did you promise to repair the generator?" and he answers "Yes" then just maybe you have something there. Or, if there is a credible independent witness or a voice recording. But if his answer is that he "promised to make a good effort to fix the generator" then it all becomes a bit fuzzy. There's also the question of maybe it was fixed when you picked it up but another problem happened before you got home.

I feel bad for you but if the seller says "not my problem", I doubt that there is much point in pursuing it.

Where did this theory come from, just curious. I use ether on diesel engines sparingly but very, very seldom on gas engines as it does not work well because of the low heat created because of lower compression. What am I missing?

The Romans knew it many centuries ago...Caveat emptor.

You took possession, now it's your problem.

Ed I am glad you pointed this out, when I read it that was the first thing that glared at me. The time line and symptom don't match, not to mention the amount of starting fluid it would take to get the oil to smell like starting fluid.



I would not have faith in any shop that gave me that diagnosis, and would be pulling my rig outta there so fast heads spin.

Keep your eyes open on Facebook Marketplace for genny . I see them ocassionally for good price.
Put yourself on sellers shoes paid 3k to get genny fixed seemed ok . Now ask for 6k to split brand new one for you. Like mentioned . Ether would have flashed off out of oil at near 190f running temp. I doubt if you could even get a whiff of any after the fact.

I disagree with most. I believe that if you can show the receipts for repair and phone log showing you made contact with the seller, explain your agreement to a judge I think you have a case. Now whats it worth I couldn't say and how about your time. Chances are you will need to travel to his county to file and return for the hearing

The last dozen posters need to rush on over to the "Do you read" thread. :cool:

OP has purchased a new generator. Of course you won't read this either so what is the point. :banghead:

I am not a lawyer however I am familiar with the law in this regard and all similar contracts which is that there can only be either a verbal agreement or a written agreement (not both). Regardless of what either party claims verbally, if the sale provides a written contract such as a "Bill of Sale" then that is the contract and there is no legally binding contract outside of what is written. For example if the seller stated to you that he would fix any issue for say 6 months, and that statement is not in the Bill of Sale, then there is nothing legally you can do to collect on it.

A point of clarity, when there is both a verbal agreement and a written agreement (ie: bill of sale), the written agreement takes precedence and any verbal agreement is not enforceable, therefore any important aspects (verbal agreements) to the purchase or sale needs to also be included in the written agreement and signed by both parties and in some states notarized. ~CA

So should everyone willing to help including those that may have contributed to thousands or tens of thousands of posts be required to also carefully read every post prior to trying to help.

Sure helps. What if the OP has posted more details or clarifying info. Makes the forum far more helpful. So, yes, if you really want to help.

Well I thought read all but must have missed his last response but I may have missed but you were a huge help pointing out our mistakes. I have spent hours printing diagrams larger at work and tracing out wires and relays before to help someone . Maybe it be better help to forum police instead lol.

Here you go. :D

Every private sale I have made includes the following, "Vehicle sold As Is, Where Is. No Guarantee or Warranty Intended or Implied."

Bag Genny
 

Not sure what $$ you're talking about with this purchase but my .02 is the first year you own used you will discover every problem the seller had which is why they decided to sell. If the $$ are enough paying $600 for a professional inspector would/should/may have discovered the issue. Ask yourself, if you knew the genny needed a re-build, would you have passed on this coach? I know its sounds harsh but you have a positive "suc it up buttercup" attitude - now go make years of memories in your DP! :)

I am not questioning your integrity but after all this time ...He should believe you- Why ?

If you accept "as is" you pay not seller.
 

I am in total agreement with Ljwt330. Judge Judy would say "you ate the steak, now you have to pay". You had the opportunity to have a mechanic look at it before you took delivery. So you accepted it "as is". The seller was relieved of any responsibility when you accepted it "as is". Did you get an extended warranty? It doesn't sound as if you did, but that would be the only way that you would not have to take full financial responsibility. If the prior owner felt guilty enough they might try and make it right by helping with the replacement/repair, but they are under no obligation.

So, get out the credit card and get that thing on order as soon as possible. Then when you get the new one installed you will have a warranty.

Another possibility is to contact a RV junk yard like rvparts.visonerv.com . If they have one you can get a much lower price and quicker delivery. Good Luck

1st. Remember the old truth, buyer beware.
2nd. Most individuals that sell an RV are truthful, but not always.
3rd. Any time you buy used expect problems and accept them or stay away.
4th. Many times something used will be on the verge and the owner has no clue.
5th No one drive or treats the equipment as you would or thinks they do.
You can look on the net and find a gen set for less than 12k. I bought a 10k almost new one for $4500. runs like a top, same model and all. Patience is a virtue not all men are blessed with.

Buy a used generator from a rv salvage

You accepted it as is when you paid him. I know it is a hard pill to swallow. But it is your pill now.

=== They are full of it ===
One day the coach is gonna need more fuel, get him on that one to.

A buyer should always have a professional inspection on a used coach. If not the RV is sold "as is" unless a written contract was breached. The seller has receipts that he tried. He may have no knowledge what the mechanic did, it was running when picked up, therefore his verbal agreement was met.

I am sorry for your issue, but you are SOL since you dont have any type of written contract.

We bought a used coach in 2019. I also purchased a Goodsam warranty on it. These warranties go into effect immediately upon purchase (no waiting period). If you had purchased one you would only be out the deductible. 2 months later we submitted a $5600 dollar claim and they paid it. Since then we had a $5200 dollar claim and they paid it. These warranties are paid monthly. No big upfront money.
I have used Goodsam on my last 3 coaches and they always pay the claim.

Find a small engine mechanic to rebuild the motor. Parts are available, it’s pretty simple on most motors…

Starting fluid
 

I know my question is a little off track but I am curious about the starting fluid in the crankcase.


Starting fluids have a low flash point and evaporate very quickly. If I read correctly, the generator was run numerous times before the mechanic opened the block. Seems to me the small amount of starting fluid which bypassed the rings, ending up in the crankcase, should have evaporated immediately when the genny started.

I would look at going after the mobile repair facility - if there is any state laws regarding warranty or repairs and/or if they get passed onto the new buyer. You are most likely out of luck with both the seller and the repair tech unless there is some warranty provided. If the repair tech has any licenses for certain work, and if anything regulated by the state, you could at least see if the mobile repair tech has any liability in your state.

Regarding the OP thinking about taking the seller to small claims court, do some research for your state. In Washington, even if you win your case, the court is not a collections agent and you will be out of luck - from personal experience!

I think that would be a stretch since he is not their customer and never had any dealings with them. He would need copies of invoices etc from the seller.

All I read from the OP was "an agreement".

And large purchase should NEVER BE A VERBAL AGREEMENT. Used vehicles are always "as is" unless you get a queen contact. It is on you.

Do I think you got ripped off, YES, from my what you're mechanic found. Could you swing in court, A BIG MAYBE. This happens when buying from individuals.

A hand shake is not an agreement (contact) in the eyes of the law. He had no contract.

Check with an attorney. You may have a warranty remedy under the Uniform Commercial Code in your state.

Oral contracts are enforceable in all states except for the purchase of land.

Sorry to hear your troubles. Unfortunately, this sounds like its was a private sale, and not a dealer sale.

If so, then once you pay and drive away, the seller has no legal responsibility for what happens to the vehicle. If it was a dealer sale, then you need to check your States laws regarding vehicle sale transactions. The generator issue may, or may not be covered.

The mobile mechanic may very well have severely shortened the life of the diesel generator using Ether starting fluid. The problem is proving the mobile mechanic did it, and not the previous owner.
I'll speculate the engine was failing already, the diagnostic and/or repair was performed incorrectly. Lastly, in an effort to "make" the engine run, starting fluid was used, and that action caused further damaged.

In the end, you will need to have that generator removed, and either repaired or replaced. The next option is to locate a good used diesel generator from a salvage yard, such as Visone.

Where did the seller warranty/guarantee the performance of the generator?

With any used object I buy, I would NEVER think of going back to the seller if it breaks... its USED...

Warranties can be implied. Every state has some version of the Uniform Commercial Code enacted into its statutes. The UCC has implied warranty provisions. I do not recall whether it applies to private sales. It has been a long time since I looked at the UCC, and it varies from state to state.That's why I suggested contacting an attorney in the state of purchase. Most attorneys will not charge for an initial consultation.

An important point to remember when dealing with contracts is that a verbal contract is only as good as the paper it's not written on.

Without a contract explaining the terms and conditions of the sale, you're stuck with any further repairs unless the seller is generous and will pick up the bill for repairs after it was inspected at the point of sale.

Indeed a written contact is far better than an oral one, but oral contracts are valid and enforceable. It all depends upon the testimony of the buyer and seller and how believable they are to the judge. It helps if there are emails, texts, phone messages, witnesses, or contemporaneous notes that record the intention of the parties. There might be an implied warranty, which is why I always write a simple bill of sale that says "AS IS" when I sell something major. A visit to any attorney for an initial, usually free, consultation, might be in order. A stern letter from any attorney might break things loose.

Be aware. If you use a good, competent attorney, one that gets things done, the initial consultation will be built into their structured billing or if you decide not to use their services, you’ll likely get a statement showing what you owe.

If anyone should help pay it sounds to me it’d be the mechanic that didn’t fix it right. The seller is not at all responsible imho.

Reminds me of a friend who sold a condo. They guy who bought it rented it out three months later. Then called and said you owe me about 10k dollars because the refrigerator leaked and ruined all the floor and cabinets around it after they turned the water back on the day before the people where to move in.

I deal in rental contracts daily. Statue of Frauds in most states. A contract must be in writing to be enforceable. Unwritten contracts are a "he said, she said" and not enforceable. The statement, if texts, emails, etc. are available, they are written agreements, without those, there is nothing to enforce.
If I sold the MH and spent $3,000 with receipts for the agreed generator repair and it was running when the buyer was satisfied and wrote the check, it's a done deal. That is the delivery and acceptance of any contract. If I did everything I agreed to do on the sale, a letter from an attorney wouldn't scare me a bit.

Anyone who has been to court knows the math…

An attorney for a minor matter is a losing math equation.

Buyer here isn’t due a “new” generator under any scenario. He’s due repair costs or depreciated value under a best case scenario.

Call that $5000. Now start subtracting legal costs and retainers…

This isn’t a case for a lawyer. It’s a scenario where you lick your wounds and pay to fix it.

Caveat Emptor... Sorry, just my opinion.

ADVISE FROM A LAY PERSON:
1. WRITE YOUR DECLARATION STATING FACTS AND ARGUMENTS IN SUPPORT THEREOF;
2. DOCUMENT ALL YOU KNOW AND PROVIDE DOCUMENTS WHERE NECESSARY.
3. FILE YOU CLAIM FOR ALL IT'S WORTH

4. THE TRIER OF FACTS (the Judge) WILL DECIDE.


Regards,

That may be so. But HARD to prove. In essence they are no good without witnesses. It is just one word against another. That's why you should Always get it in writing.

Sorry for your situation.... iam currently in the search and this saga drives home to me the importance of having a inspection pre purchase.....again. Sorry for rough start.

Caveat Emptor. I think you "own" the problem(s).

Some key facts you forgot to include, in red, all of which would be relevant if taken to court.

Then, in this same situation, you could post asking if suing the inspector made sense. :)

Actually Either has been used to start Diesel Engines for over 70 years especially back in the before the 1950s I was born in 1952 through to 1980 in Cold weather absolutely necessary to start a diesel. Heavy equipment and hi-way Trucks had an either application Kit installed in the engine compartment with either a set of wires going to a push button in the cab or a cable going into the cab with a T handle to pull to spray either into the intake tube from air cleaner or direct into intake Manifold. the electric button operated a solinoid and T handle operated a mechanical lever.either cans were about 2 times or 3 times taller than the little either cans we have now. You said you had two dead cylinders so either you need new injectors or the piston rings are wore out possible broken and scored cylinder walls. YOUR ENGINE should be pulled apart and inspected for damage, it might be repairable. But, donot pay the rip off Dealer rates at $200 per hr. find a small shop, that will work for $50 TO $75 per hr. with an estimate after it is apart for rebuilding it with new parts. Born In the 50s fixing and driving an operating and now retired but still fixing when needed in my 2005 Travel Supreme 45 foot with 4 slides 500HP Cuminins with 12,500 KW Cuminins Onan Genset

Rental contracts deal with property, which in many states requires a writing to form an enforceable contract. As you say, property contracts are controlled through the Statute of Frauds adopted in most states. Most other agreements are not.

If I say to Alan "scratch my back and I'll pay you a dollar" and Alan agrees, we have formed a legal, valid, enforceable contract. Once he scratches my back, I owe him a dollar.

Unwritten contracts are just much harder to prove than signed written contracts. But if we go before a judge and I admit that that was the agreement but that I changed my mind after I got my back scratched, I'm going to lose.

Yes you could I suppose...my point is a second look may prevent such occurrence.....or not!! :)

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I believe you ask the wrong q.
I believe you could benefit by re-framing the scene...
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A contrarian view:
Our generator is on the roof.
The fuel is sunlight.
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Nearly two decades full-time live-aboard, we never saw much need for a petroleum-based genset... busted or otherwise.
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Facing your situation, I would:
a -- invest in batteries before I
b -- invest a nickel's worth of energy fiddling with the busted (aka 'toes-up') factory-installed genset.
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The seller is out of the equation.
Become friends with exploring My New Reality.

You might want to check with an attorney, I check with mine all the time with tenants "trying" to pull a verbal contract. Contact law applies to contracts being tangible (real) or intangible. From first hand experience that generator unwritten purchase "agreement" will never see a day in court. The buyer accepted delivery and tried to make claims weeks later. Ask your attorney, not the internet.

I'm a retired lawyer.