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Old 11-25-2018, 07:48 AM   #43
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Gary, I took the time to go through the long videos on how the toolbox needs to be setup for each type of use. I now know my tech did not take all of those steps. He clicked on buttons which added additional error codes and did not know how to get them out. A tech that has programmed a hundred Kenworth dashes still does not know the steps for the onGuard system in the Spartan dash. I learned a lot from this post and researching the correct procedures.

From your description of the shop not having the upgraded software and incorrect adapter....try to learn the steps before tomorrow and watch the shop guys very closely.

After your experience being relayed to Spartan, I look for approved Spartan shops to have complete factory training on the system very shortly.
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Old 11-27-2018, 05:14 PM   #44
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Gary, it is day 2, what is happening with the shop and the programming?
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Old 11-27-2018, 11:02 PM   #45
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Does anyone elses Collision Lights blink on and off when the WABCO errors out? Its both the lights on the dash and the mirrors. I also notice some sort of disturbance in the video quality (like from a radar or over powered ametuer radio) at the same time this is happening. Tried all the suggestions, but can't get it to clear.
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Old 11-28-2018, 06:19 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paparazi View Post
Does anyone elses Collision Lights blink on and off when the WABCO errors out? Its both the lights on the dash and the mirrors. I also notice some sort of disturbance in the video quality (like from a radar or over powered ametuer radio) at the same time this is happening. Tried all the suggestions, but can't get it to clear.
No problem like that, Mine was Amber messages on the dash. I did have several error codes to refer to. To check for error codes with the rotary knob on the drivers console. Turn to settings/diagnoses/OBD diagnoses. Dialing to back at each screen will get you back to the main menu.

A call to Spartan with any error codes, if you have any, will help them with the problem.
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Old 11-29-2018, 04:15 PM   #47
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1950: Popular Science Magazine predicts flying cars within 30 years.

2010: Everyone predicts driverless cars within a decade or two.

2012 : Intrusive "Driving Safety Aids" are introduced.

2018: I predict that we will see flying cars before we see driverless. Why? about 99 percent less chance of the flying cars hitting each other than driverless.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
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Old 11-29-2018, 05:54 PM   #48
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Driverless cars are on the roads in places in this country now and appear to me to be gaining support and speed. A few do not have a driver on board but those are rare for now. I think it is going to happen, maybe with big rigs common before cars because of widespread driver shortages. All JMHO
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Old 11-29-2018, 09:54 PM   #49
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Some states, such as Florida, have lemon laws. Three times and they are out. These laws were made for automobiles and could include motorhomes at least for the drive ability part. I bet if a couple of these high end motorhomes are returned for a refund, they would find the solution in a couple of minutes. I would love to see them eat the depreciation of a six month old RV.
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Old 11-30-2018, 08:26 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by pomara View Post
Some states, such as Florida, have lemon laws. Three times and they are out. These laws were made for automobiles and could include motorhomes at least for the drive ability part. I bet if a couple of these high end motorhomes are returned for a refund, they would find the solution in a couple of minutes. I would love to see them eat the depreciation of a six month old RV.
I live in FL, been through the Lemon Law filing and for sure unskilled shops that do not yet know how the Digital Dash works does not qualify for the Lemon Law. It would take 3 trips to qualified shops with 3 dash replacements before you could even open the book on Lemon Laws.....not even close yet.
If it was that bad, Spartan would fly an engineer in to see what needs to be done to correct the problem.....they did for me.

It has been 5 business days since we have heard from the OP on the situation. Heck for all we know the engineer might be on his way
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Old 12-04-2018, 08:53 PM   #51
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OP is home finally and trying to figure best way to update and summarize the past week or more. Yippeee!

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Old 12-07-2018, 07:26 AM   #52
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Yippeee sounds like success!! [emoji2]
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Old 12-09-2018, 09:06 AM   #53
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Very Very long

Very long…. The rest of the story…..

Good morning…. I’m back in Louisiana. Yahoo!!! Three days from Hagerstown home. Learned a lot in the process but unfortunately, don’t think any of us really know what started the problem and what finally resolved the problem. That is the bad part. I am willing to go through a lot if I learn something in the process: Ideally, what to do to avoid the problem in the future, and ultimately, how to resolve the problem if it develops again.

The next paragraph is a review of the problem… how it developed and what was involved. If you remember all of this, skip past the dotted line for the newer information.

A quick review. I have experienced intermittent failures of the adaptive cruise system and also the Old Fashioned Conventional Cruise Control a-periodically (when the ACC is defeated) over the past 5,000 miles. Total number of times was maybe five. I would get a warning that the Adaptive Cruise Control had faulted, and then later, that the Collision Mitigation System had faulted. I learned from Shane and Dave at Spartan and reading the written material from WABCO to shut down the engine and ignition to reboot to clear the OnGuard faults. This did not work until I also shut down the coach 12 volt system (the salesman’s switch). I cleared codes to each occurrence and was back on the road. Then, I started to get a few other fault codes in addition to the standard ones. These might be codes suggesting that the wheel rotation sensors were not reporting correctly, or that information was missing in the CMS/RADAR system and the system was shutting down. Apparently, if the EMS/CPU of the OnGuard system is not getting the information that it feels it should be getting, it shuts itself down so it cannot be “blamed” for not avoiding a crash when getting incomplete data. When OnGuard shuts down, then you have no cruise control and you must foot feed the diesel. Everything works but you just have to feed the fuel by foot.

------------------------- New Information

At that point, Spartan and I felt I needed to get to a repair facility. I was told three places fairly close to my location in Pennsylvania. A Cummins CoachCare facility, a specialty repair facility for emergency vehicles, and another shop I don’t remember. I was told the shop needed to have the most recent version of WABCO’s software program called ToolBox. The CoachCare facility said they did not have Toolbox and that Cummins dictated that they could not have any other vendor software on their computers other than Cummins proprietary software so they could not load the software. If correct that meant that no CoachCare facility was going to be able to help me. I tried the second option as they said they had Toolbox software. It took several days for the guys to get working on my coach, and the mechanic told me that “There are no codes on your system”. I was also talking to Wabco’s customer service people and they said they needed codes to tell them anything meaningful about what was going on, and since the mechanic said there were no codes, then they knew nothing that would help. The shop added some air to my tires (maybe 5# low on two tires) and said goodbye. Nice people, but said that was all they could do. No codes evident.

That did not make much sense given what I saw scrolled out on the dash, but I was back on my way. Spent a week in and around Williamsburg, and ready to head back to Pennsylvania. As we left Williamsburg, the WABCO system started to fault again. First the ACC faulted, then the CMS faulted, and then I started to get 7 or 8 different faults, some old and some new. Again, the system was reporting not getting data at the anticipated rates, that the data from the rear wheel speeds was not correct, the digital speedometer would drop from 62 mph down to zero and right back up to 62 mph with no change in coach speed. Automatic traction control faults, ABS braking faults, and more I don’t remember. Some of these codes were repeating rapidly. Then I got a new message: “RADAR SHUTDOWN”, and the CMS screen on the dash turned orange warning colors. Tried to stop and shut down everything and reboot, and start again, but all still faulted right from the start. But then new things started to happen…. The Allison tranny started to shift very hard from 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd. More bizarrely, the engine felt sluggish and had difficulty climbing moderate hills. More bizarrely, there was a pulsing in the speed of the coach….rapid pulsing either feeling like the fuel was being rapidly applied and removed, or in retrospect, what I think was the ABS system rapidly applying the brakes. This occurred when I manually downshifted from 6th to 5th as the engine was straining to climb modest hills. Very strange indeed! Spartan said they had no repair facilities near D.C. and their closest place was back in Hagerstown. So I headed there. Spartan had recommended having the Cummins ECM flashed with the most recent updated programming. My shop was not Cummins certified (but was WABCO certified) and they referred me to a Freightliner shop in Hagerstown for the Cummins updates. Spent a long day there. Got a young mechanic (20ish) who did the ECM updating and then apparently had WABCO Toolbox and read the fault codes. Since most had something to do with bad data from the tranny or wheels, he found 2 connectors near the tranny. One comes out of the transmission and one about a foot or two away is wire tied to the frame between the drive and tag wheels. He examined the connectors and the wires and found them OK. He said there were 3 “hot” wires and 3 grounds in both connectors and felt that the one connector wire-tied to the frame appeared to him to have been tied too tightly… pulling the wires that went into the connectors tightly and stretching the wires and connectors. He found some slack in the wires and re-tied them so that they were not so stretched, and then re-waterproofed both connectors. There were now no codes on the dash and I seriously thought about hugging him. Nice kid. Back to my repair shop, said all was good, and ready to depart for PA the next morning. Said goodbye and went to nearby Pilot FJ to fill fuel. When I fired up the Cummins to head to PA, all the fault codes came back on the dash. Complete mess. Heartbroken, back to my main shop.

Took a couple of days of talking Spartan, the shop people, and WABCO and shop decided they might not have the right software version, but it was the Wednesday before Thanksgiving and they could not get SnapOn to process their request for new software version before everyone seemed to go on holiday. However, Spartan referred my problem to their dealer service techs division (more advanced) and that person (Brian) said there was another coach maybe in Dallas that had similar problems and Dallas/Spartan found that there was a communication wire (the J1939 bus) that ended right beside the RADAR unit that was getting rainwater in it and they dried out that termination and it resolved the problem. We looked on my coach and you could see a large communication wire bundle come from the “firewall” forward past the Onan and to the RADAR unit. Beside the RADAR is a short connector which is at the end of the line. That connectors holds a “terminating resistor”. The other coach in Dallas had that connector zip-tied to a metal support by the RADAR unit in such a way that it was exposed to rain water moisture. My connector was dangling loose, and not strapped to a support, but could easily have gotten moisture while driving. We checked it and there was no visible moisture and it was not raining when the system really started to crash. Brian then told us that we could isolate the RADAR system and the dash by breaking the J1939 information bus line located near the floor beside the steering column under the dash. He had us break the bus at that connector and insert the terminating resistor there instead. When we moved that terminator, the bus was terminated before data got to the dash. So, the dash had no information on it… nice dials and scales, but no data. HOWEVER, when we did that, we went for a test drive, and all the hard shifting, engine sluggishness, and problems vanished. But, the driver had no information. I felt the coach was running but it was too dangerous to try to drive 1000 miles home with no data to the dash. Everyone agreed. We moved to local RV park over Thanksgiving for 4 days waiting for everyone to go back to work on Monday.

On Monday, they got the right software version resolved, and a young mechanic working there (maybe 20 years old) who was proficient with computers came to my RV park and we got the WABCO customer service people on the phone with the mechanic. We first moved the terminating resistor back to the connector beside the RADAR unit. That put the dashboard and the RADAR unit back into the system. Then they connected the computer with the Toolbox software to the translator box (between the computer and the OBD connector) and into the OBD connector, and the WABCO people led the tech step by step through the process. The software quickly read the codes. I could tell equally quickly that the series of steps that WABCO led the tech through was far different from what the same tech and the more senior tech had done a couple of days earlier and again concluded “No Codes”. I took a picture of the screen listing of codes. I will look at the pix and update on the specific codes in a later post. However, when the tech read the codes off to the WABCO person, the WABCO person seemed to quickly decided he understood the problem and he told the tech to ask me to get the coach ready to go for a test drive. While I was getting slides in and making preparation, apparently the WABCO CS guy had the young tech maybe remove the terminating resistor again and re-insert it by the RADAR and clear the codes. I am kicking myself as I did not get to see exactly what was done. But it didn’t take long.

The WABCO guy said we needed to go for a drive and needed to get above 25 mph as he said the whole system would not operate and show any fault codes unless we were traveling faster than that. So, I drove the coach for maybe 10 miles down I-81 with the young tech watching the laptop still tapped into my OBD socket. I got up to 55 – 60 and set the ACC cruise system to 62 so I would run up on some slower vehicles and see what happened. No faults when foot feeding (CMS engaged), and no faults when on ACC with CMS engaged. Dash fully operational and everything looking right. When I pushed tech to tell me what they had done, he said that the WABCO guy led him through the reset process and that is all that they did. He said, in his opinion, the fault codes that they had tried to read twice before had never been cleared correctly and that the WABCO guy gave him a procedure to do it right. He had no more explanation.

So, next day we said goodbye for the third time and timidly left for Louisiana. Drove much of the way through Virginia first day. Cummins OK, Allison OK, climbed hills like it should, but I could not look at the dash without expecting to see a fault code come flashing up. I told Spartan that I was not going to engage the ACC or the defaulted ACC until I crossed the Mississippi heading west as it was flat land and if the problems returned, I had no steep hills to climb and thought I could get home. That is exactly what I did. The CMS and RADAR were obviously working while I “foot-fed” the fuel for ~ 800 miles and it scolded me if I got close to the vehicle in front (in its opinion) of me with constant loud warning buzzers (I still really dislike this system!). I fed the diesel by foot for a total of 2.5 days until we crossed the Mississippi on I-20 and when I engaged the ACC system for the first time…. Everything worked. ACC worked. CMS worked. I still was afraid to try the ACC default cruise. Never did. Got home. Yippee!!!!!!! Still don’t like the ACC or CMS system at all, but I was moving and the whole terrible experience was behind me for now. But I’m pretty sure that none of us (Spartan, the Hagerstown dealer, me, the DW) have any real idea why it started or what resolved the problem. Dave at Spartan CS seems to have taken this on as a crusade to get it figured out.

Now, what have I learned? I’m not sure. I know that not all Spartan shops can help with this problem. You have to find a Spartan shop which is not Cummins CoachCare so the shop that you find has the WABCO toolbox software. The software has to be recent. My memory is that it is 12.3 or 12.6. I will check that and report. And my strong opinion is that you must gently insist that the repair techs get on the phone with the WABCO people and let the WABCO people talk them through whatever needs to be done, whether finding codes, or clearing codes, or diagnosing a failed RADAR unit or ECM, or uploading new software. I think the WABCO people are sharp with their system and their software, which the typical mechanic is not. I think this is mostly out of their typical skillset. Spartan and WABCO are not about to send RADAR unit in the hope that a new one fixes the problem. I have now talked to enough people that really dislike this system that I know that I am far from being alone. Truckers complain that it locks up their brakes, and is considered dangerous to drive in icy or slippery conditions. There are a lot of hypothesized methods of defeating the system and I am now pretty sure it can be done…. It is finding what really works and keeps Old Fashioned Conventional Cruise.

I am very impressed with Dave and Shane at Spartan. I think that Spartan is very concerned that these problems are occurring and Spartan has not been up to speed on understanding the issue or its resolution, however, they have put in a lot of time. Dave, in particular, has been dogged in his following through on this issue. He says he is going to call and then actually calls. He was concerned about me being stuck for 8 days in the middle of my 3.5 month vacation. I know that there is a lot of discussion between Spartan, Wabco, and I am assuming Entegra also. What made this problem go away? I am guessing that the tech at Freightliner might have found connectors and wires that might have been involved in conveying inconsistent or poor information through the communication bus. The Cummins ECM was updated to the newest version. Spartans best guess is that this has to do with the terminating resistor in the front genny compartment beside the RADAR. Virtually every WABCO error code explains that the coach should have the most recent ECM update. My repair facility tech guesses that the codes that were in the system had never been properly cleared and once cleared let the system start to operate normally again but why they occurred in the first place is still a guess. Notice that there is not a lot of certainty in any of that. The RADAR/ACC/CMS system is now working but no one knows for sure why.

I am going to water seal the terminating resistor and connector for the J1939 bus system. There might have been water at some time, or it might have been loose, or something else, but I am going to seal it to moisture. A lot of people suspicioned that the problem was either the RADAR ECM or the communication bus, and the Freightliner tech focused on the connectors (2) in the communication-bus near the transmission. I wonder if working on those connectors was the actual resolution of the problem. Spartan believe the problem is most likely in the front near the RADAR unit.

In total, I spent about 13 days waiting or being at repair facilities for this specific issue on this trip, and days of (total) hours on the phone with customer service reps, plus several days dealing with an issue that I have not raised yet here on iRV2. I have no idea if the same troubles will reappear the next time I fire up the Cummins. I pray that they don’t, but I have no confidence that they won’t. Now, the last 2.5 days of the trip, the Cornerstone functioned beautifully, rode well, had tons of power up hills, quiet and fun to drive with no faults in the OnGuard system or anywhere else. It was so nice to have those final 2.5 “everything-running-smoothly” days.

Gary
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Old 12-09-2018, 09:11 AM   #54
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Gary, is there a CliffNotes version of this post?
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Old 12-09-2018, 10:06 AM   #55
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Gary, if the Dave, from Spartan, is Dave Martin he will certainly do all he can to get to the bottom of your problem. I’ve had dealings with him back to 2007 and he’s never let me down.
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Old 12-09-2018, 11:32 AM   #56
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J.H.

One and the same Dave. Great guy!

Gary
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